Muslim Rape Wave in Sweden (religion of peace alert)

[GHook93]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Oh so I guess it was nothing to do with the massive campaign and vast protest to get the law changed... nothing to do with that at all. Sorry, but that BS pill I will not swallow. i have already provided the rape stats for the US in this thread. Taken from a BBC news article: - "A woman is raped every two hours and gang-raped every eight hours in Pakistan, according to the country's independent Human Rights Commission." SOurce From the statistic I provided earlier, there were 204,370 women raped in a year in the US. That comes to in excess of 23 women raped per hour. The population of Pakistan is about half of that of the US. I will let you work out the stats for rape prevailancy of the two nations, but here is a hint, the US has a hell of a bigger problem if those stats are anything to go by. But to confirm according to this site the US has the 9th largest rape problem on the globe: - NationMaster - Statistics > Rapes (per capita) by country Yeah, I can see a difference, in the US it is a much bigger problem and the one point you have is that the law was appauling, but law which has not been amended. So in short you have nothing and so much for your theories on Muslims. Tell me bear, do you have anything to add to this discussion or are you just here to spam? And in retort, I'm the one whose argument is backed up by the stats. You lot claim that Islam and muslims are not tolerant or moderate and inclined to rape, etc, yet in reality we in the west have a much vaster problem. So you are the blind one bear, not me. Enjoy.

Your sources are flawed. Rape statistics are only based on how often it is reported. In Pakistan it is probably reported in a tiny fraction of the actual cases, since the victim is more likely to be persecuted, than the perpertrator. That is very different than in America.

nothing to do with that at all. Sorry, but that BS pill I will not swallow.

Please also try to observe the rules you impose on us!

[tinybear]

The mass campaign and mass protest to get the law changed? Hmmm...by who? Certainly not by the Muslims in Pakistan.

PAKISTAN. PARLIAMENT APPROVES CHANGES TO ISLAMIC RAPE LAW

November 15, 2006: Pakistan's parliament approved amendments to an Islamic-based law on rape, dropping the death penalty and flogging for those convicted of consensual sex outside marriage, officials said. President Gen. Pervez Musharraf praised lawmakers for passing the bill, which enraged Islamist lawmakers who stormed out of parliament in protest.

The amendments won cautious support from human rights activists, who still said the government needed to go further and scrap the law, known as the Hudood Ordinance, altogether. The law made prosecuting rape cases almost impossible, and placed women at risk of being tried or even sentenced to death for adultery.

[Mia]

Islamic lawmakers were infuriated that they can't flog and kill women anymore for being the victim of rape.....damn, life is rough trying to be the keeper of good values, isn't it?

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Nono The original point of this thread hardly counts, now that tiny has dredged it up and relaunched it. It now is what it now is. What wields authority, the courts or dusty law books full of dead letters? The courts, naturally -- we're talking about Pakistan, where the rule of law is a laughing matter. Jeez, Chees, you have a touching faith in the validity of official rape statistics in a place like Pakistan. (And don't challenge me to somehow prove what I mean by "place like". That country is absolutely notorious.)

The original point of this thread hardly counts, now that tiny has dredged it up and relaunched it. It now is what it now is.

My responce was based on a responce to a point I made a long time ago, as such the discussion is still based on what was saying a year and a half ago.

[quote]What wields authority, the courts or dusty law books full of dead letters?[/QOOTE]

Personally I think that is irrelevent. I think the actual stats have a lot more validity than what some court or dusty books says; but Mia insists that the former legal position of rape is of some validity...

Jeez, Chees, you have a touching faith in the validity of official rape statistics in a place like Pakistan.

Actually no... because my first source is cites an independant human rights groups investigation's figures.

Your sources are flawed. Rape statistics are only based on how often it is reported.

In that case, all crime stats are flawed. Anyone who reads them with a little sense knows this. We look at the sources accept that they are likely to be higher; but unless you have some magical method of knowing the real figure they will have to do. I think common sense dictates that the actual figure will not be a full 20 times higher or however high it would have to be to come anywhere near the US's tally.

n Pakistan it is probably reported in a tiny fraction of the actual cases

Well, if you want to make the claim that the figutre of reported claims is tiny I hope you have some evidence...

Please also try to observe the rules you impose on us!

Please do tell me where in the rules where it says that arguments are not fair game. And if you still don't like what I said report me and we will see what jason and the other mods think.

[rmnunez]

We must recognize that it would be more likely rapes would be reported in jurisdictions where its vindication or reparation for the harm could result. Pakistan certainly doesn't seem a place where reporting a rape would be advised and the requirement for 4 male witnesses likely makes this very rare. I think its more likely a rape victim would report the crime in western societies because it is less shameful to have been a victim of rape, obstancles in prosecution aren't so difficult to overcome and there is some chance of prevailing.

[sevendogs]

A good lesson for promoters of "tolerance".

[GHook93]

Quote by: Chris the Chees In that case, all crime stats are flawed. Anyone who reads them with a little sense knows this. We look at the sources accept that they are likely to be higher; but unless you have some magical method of knowing the real figure they will have to do. I think common sense dictates that the actual figure will not be a full 20 times higher or however high it would have to be to come anywhere near the US's tally.

True, but they are 100x more accurate in the West, especially the US, then they are in the back-water corrupt Islamic world.

Well, if you want to make the claim that the figutre of reported claims is tiny I hope you have some evidence...

No direct evidence needed, just use common sense. Rape victims are shunned in Pakistan. Rape victims require 4 willing and able MUSLIM witnesses. Rape convictions are extremely hard to get even if you have witnesses. Rape victims that lose their cases, get prosecuted themselves.

Using common sense, most victims are going to report the claim.

[GHook93]

Quote by: rmnunez We must recognize that it would be more likely rapes would be reported in jurisdictions where its vindication or reparation for the harm could result. Pakistan certainly doesn't seem a place where reporting a rape would be advised and the requirement for 4 male witnesses likely makes this very rare. I think its more likely a rape victim would report the crime in western societies because it is less shameful to have been a victim of rape, obstancles in prosecution aren't so difficult to overcome and there is some chance of prevailing.

Amen, that is exactly why the stats are flawed in Pakistan.

[another day]

It seems that's a fundamental difference between Western culture and Islamic culture. Where we shame the rapist, they shame the rape victim.

[rmnunez]

It might not be as stark as that, but there certainly is a difference and it supports the conclusion rapes are less likely reported in a Sharia jurisdiction if the option exists. But a raped woman may be a terrible scar on a household's honor so a method of redemption must be devised. The Muslims being a vengeful lot who haven't gotten far beyond Hammurabbi's "Golden Rule", found a solution in the female's expiation. Her innocence lost she is ruined anyway.

[tinybear]

Quote by: another day It seems that's a fundamental difference between Western culture and Islamic culture. Where we shame the rapist, they shame the rape victim.

Yeah, because the rapist is usually male and the rape victim is usually female. Enough said, I think.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Muslims tend to find false witnesses against women and to then have them killed in their judicial system, so lots of rape isn't reported.

Just figure any culture that is willing to blow up their children more than raise them because of hate, any culture that keeps women down like the Islamic one is a doomed cult IMO.

[Mia]

Oh, now lets not go off the deep end here. It certainly cannot be said that the 'culture' is willing to blow up its children, when by culture you mean Muslim in general.

We are talking about Pakistan and rape.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Muslims tend to find false witnesses against women and to then have them killed in their judicial system, so lots of rape isn't reported. Just figure any culture that is willing to blow up their children more than raise them because of hate, any culture that keeps women down like the Islamic one is a doomed cult IMO.

Muslims don't tend to anything. If a rape goes before a Sharia court, the burden of proof is on the woman. The man does not produce a witness. According to Sharia law both parties whom are guilty of having sex outside of wedlock should be stoned to death, not just the woman. Also Shariah law is not Islamic law, Islamic law is the Que'ran.

And GBA, you are full of crap, it's not that long ago that whites were killing "niggers" (apologies for the use of that term, it is to prove a point), be they man, woman or child because god forbid the blackman should have a vote or go to a decent school! Or lemme see, France in Algeria, Nazi Germany and it's allies during the second world war, Japan from 1920 to 1945, Australia and the Aborigines (ongoing), Britain and it's now former colonies, Irish terror attacks in Britain. It seems to me that it's perfectly ok for "us" to kill them, them being any godless heathens who aren't us, but when they return the favour............???? And on another note, (These figures come from the Irish rape crisis centre, which is currently seeking changes Europe-wide to law pretaining to rape cases) in western europe approx 1 in 10 rapes allegations actually makes it to trial with fewer than 20% of those actually resulting in a conviction. I'd make a stab at saying the stats are pretty similar in the US. So because we have laws against it, it makes it alright yeah?

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: GBA This is a cult started by the child molester Mohamed.

I missed this gem. This myth has long been spread by those who wish to besmirch Islam. However investigation of Islam, Muhammad and 7th century Arab society will soon dispel this slur. You see intercourse with the pre-pubecent was frowned upon as it is now; marriage was not. However like in most many past societies intercourse with girls and boys who had progressed to the point of pubtery was not frowned upon. This is why Shakespears Juliet would have been only a very young girl, in her early teens at most.

Muhammad married Ayesha when she was aged six. This was not a marriage of attraction, but a rather normal marriage or arrangement. Muhammad waited at least four years before consummating the marriage; this is almost certainly to wait for Ayesha to reach an agre where she was capable of child birth. So in short Muhammad was not a child molester and was acting in a manner which was completely appropriate for the period in which he lived.

Indeed the Christian virgin Mary, who having left the temple at 12-14 would have been immediately married off by her family as was typical. While the bible does not tell us her age when god supposedly impregnated her, we do know she was impergnated before marriage, which gives us a reasonable idea of how old she was. Does that make, in a rather odd way, 'god a paedophile?

[rmnunez]

God "impregnated" the Virgin Mary? Where do you get this idea, it was an "immaculate conception" without intercourse, how could this in any way be pedophilic? The Virgin Mary found out she was pregnant from an angel, she never had sex with God!

[Nono]

Anyway, who says she was a virgin? All based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew: http://www.appliedlanguage.com/articles/virgin_birth_and_red_underpants.shtml]

Naturally the Vatican has used this and other myths bigtime to build its worldly power.

[Mia]

Quote by: Chris the Chees I missed this gem. This myth has long been spread by those who wish to besmirch Islam. However investigation of Islam, Muhammad and 7th century Arab society will soon dispel this slur. You see intercourse with the pre-pubecent was frowned upon as it is now; marriage was not. However like in most many past societies intercourse with girls and boys who had progressed to the point of pubtery was not frowned upon. This is why Shakespears Juliet would have been only a very young girl, in her early teens at most. Muhammad married Ayesha when she was aged six. This was not a marriage of attraction, but a rather normal marriage or arrangement. Muhammad waited at least four years before consummating the marriage; this is almost certainly to wait for Ayesha to reach an agre where she was capable of child birth. So in short Muhammad was not a child molester and was acting in a manner which was completely appropriate for the period in which he lived. Indeed the Christian virgin Mary, who having left the temple at 12-14 would have been immediately married off by her family as was typical. While the bible does not tell us her age when god supposedly impregnated her, we do know she was impergnated before marriage, which gives us a reasonable idea of how old she was. ...

Good post.

[Mia]

Quote by: rmnunez God "impregnated" the Virgin Mary? Where do you get this idea, it was an "immaculate conception" without intercourse, how could this in any way be pedophilic? The Virgin Mary found out she was pregnant from an angel, she never had sex with God!

You're picking on one statement that wasn't worded very well, while disregarding the important point of his whole post.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: rmnunez God "impregnated" the Virgin Mary? Where do you get this idea, it was an "immaculate conception" without intercourse, how could this in any way be pedophilic? The Virgin Mary found out she was pregnant from an angel, she never had sex with God!

God "impregnated" the Virgin Mary?

Yes, impregnate; to make pregnant. If Mary was indeed a virgin as Christian mythology suggests, then it was god that 'made' her pregnant.

Where do you get this idea, it was an "immaculate conception" without intercourse, how could this in any way be pedophilic?

I used the word "odd" for a reason.

But way to go missing the point. The point is that Christians criticise Islam for having a leader who they claim was a child molester, yet their own religion is based upon the birth of a child to a young girl; when in fact evidence suggests that Mary would have been little older than Ayesha and like Ayesha only just become physically capable of producing children.

So my point is that for their period, the period is the point a girl becomes a woman rather than birthday.