Muslim Rape Wave in Sweden (religion of peace alert)

[jose]

Quote by: GHook93 Of course you always have to turn criticism of Muslims onto Israel. Shame on you. (1) It is completely off base, (2) Its not an apples to apples comparison, (3) Diverts the topic!

ouch, you didn't like the comparison of a muslim rapist to an Israeli rapist
criticism where its due, or do you support the Israeli presidents right to walk away from rape charges

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: tinybear That's only in Pakistan and only because of General Musharraf's efforts to stamp out fundamentalism. Please note that he does this in the face of formidable opposition from Muslim clerics.

Oh so I guess it was nothing to do with the massive campaign and vast protest to get the law changed... nothing to do with that at all. Sorry, but that BS pill I will not swallow.

Do you have stats for the prevalence of rape here vs. Pakistan?

i have already provided the rape stats for the US in this thread.

Taken from a BBC news article: -

"A woman is raped every two hours and gang-raped every eight hours in Pakistan, according to the country's independent Human Rights Commission."

SOurce

From the statistic I provided earlier, there were 204,370 women raped in a year in the US. That comes to in excess of 23 women raped per hour.

The population of Pakistan is about half of that of the US. I will let you work out the stats for rape prevailancy of the two nations, but here is a hint, the US has a hell of a bigger problem if those stats are anything to go by.

But to confirm according to this site the US has the 9th largest rape problem on the globe: -

NationMaster - Statistics > Rapes (per capita) by country

But you don't see a difference between rape in the US and rape in Pakistan - LOL!

Yeah, I can see a difference, in the US it is a much bigger problem and the one point you have is that the law was appauling, but law which has not been amended. So in short you have nothing and so much for your theories on Muslims.

There is none so blind as one who refuses to see.

Tell me bear, do you have anything to add to this discussion or are you just here to spam? And in retort, I'm the one whose argument is backed up by the stats. You lot claim that Islam and muslims are not tolerant or moderate and inclined to rape, etc, yet in reality we in the west have a much vaster problem. So you are the blind one bear, not me.

Enjoy.

[jose]

Back to my original point that Islam is incompatible with democracy and societal advancement, regardless of the fact that not all Muslims agree with all of it:
oh golly oh gosh may be the people don´t want what you call democracy in their land are they free to choose their own way?

[jose]

Back to my original point that Islam is incompatible with democracy and societal advancement, regardless of the fact that not all Muslims agree with all of it:
oh golly oh gosh may be the people don´t want what you call democracy in their land are they free to choose their own way?

[Mia]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Oh so I guess it was nothing to do with the massive campaign and vast protest to get the law changed... nothing to do with that at all. Sorry, but that BS pill I will not swallow. i have already provided the rape stats for the US in this thread. Taken from a BBC news article: - "A woman is raped every two hours and gang-raped every eight hours in Pakistan, according to the country's independent Human Rights Commission." SOurce From the statistic I provided earlier, there were 204,370 women raped in a year in the US. That comes to in excess of 23 women raped per hour. The population of Pakistan is about half of that of the US. Pakistan is hardly half the size of the US. You made the contention, I shouldn't have to work out the stats - please work them out to support your argument I will let you work out the stats for rape prevailancy of the two nations, but here is a hint, the US has a hell of a bigger problem if those stats are anything to go by. But to confirm according to this site the US has the 9th largest rape problem on the globe: - NationMaster - Statistics > Rapes (per capita) by country Yeah, I can see a difference, in the US it is a much bigger problem and the one point you have is that the law was appauling, but law which has not been amended. So in short you have nothing and so much for your theories on Muslims. The fact that the law supported rape in Pakistan and has not been proven to have changed in practice is hardly a small point. The fact remains that the ISLAMIC LAW is to treat rape victims as criminals, for which I cited several sources. If the law does change in practicality in Pakistan, that's excellent, but they are going against Islamic Law to do it, and the point here is how Islam views such matters, isn't it? Tell me bear, do you have anything to add to this discussion or are you just here to spam? And in retort, I'm the one whose argument is backed up by the stats. You lot claim that Islam and muslims are not tolerant or moderate and inclined to rape, etc, yet in reality we in the west have a much vaster problem. So you are the blind one bear, not me. Tiny isn't spamming, she brought up an excellent point that the Islamic leaders are against the law being changed. Would you set aside your blind defense of a religion that you don't even know very much about to think about that for a second? Religious leaders are condemning the rape laws being changed so that the rapist is actually the criminal not the victim. Has it occurred to you that perhaps that is significant? You didn't even know what Sharia law said about rape, you had to ask me, and yet you came in guns blazing about how that's not based in Islam, but 'a small minority of Muslims'

................

At least research this and be open to the idea that what so many people all over the world are trying to tell people may just have some credibility.



ETA: I noticed you skipped right over all the citations I provided at your request about how Sharia views rape. Is that because the facts don't support your views? Also it's funny that you corrected me on using the term Islamic Law, when that is Sharia. I'm sorry, Chris, but you don't seem to be very educated in this topic - why are you participating so much when you know so little?

[Mia]

Quote by: jose Back to my original point that Islam is incompatible with democracy and societal advancement, regardless of the fact that not all Muslims agree with all of it: oh golly oh gosh may be the people don´t want what you call democracy in their land are they free to choose their own way?

Do you think they should be? If their own way is violating basic human rights?

[SoylentGreen]

You mean the basic human right not to have one country impose its belief system on another ?

[Mia]

The basic human rights of its citizens. Or does that not matter if the 'belief system' is that they shouldn't have any? Maybe the West should go back to the dark ages and call it a return to our 'belief systems' and let that be OK.

[SoylentGreen]

And in the eyes of Muslim countries America lacks a belief system . Americans only believe in pursuing money.
Maybe the west should go back to minding its own business and leave other countries to pursue their own destiny without interference.
Oh that's right there's oil in those countries America can make a profit on that . But there's only diamonds in Africa and there willing to kill themselves to give it to America so no need to interfere with the lack of basic human rights there.

[Chris the Chees]

Pakistan is hardly half the size of the US.

Actually, Pakistam is more than half the size of the US numbering something in the region of 160 million people.

I shouldn't have to work out the stats

You need me to divide a figure by two??? Well, if you insist; 23 divided by 2 is 11.5 per hour, thats higher than one every two hours.

Plus I provided evidence from aseperate source showing that the US was 9th on the list of countries with the largest rape problems; a list Pakistan wasn't even high enough to make.

The fact that the law supported rape in Pakistan and has not been proven to have changed in practice is hardly a small point.

Well, you are the one alledging that it has not changed in practise. Where is your evidence? You said that pakistan was terrible because it had dodgy laws, I pointed out that this is no longer the case, and now you some how think it is my duty to see if the law change has had any impact. Sorry but no. You think that the law is nothing but paper, you prove it. I am not going to do your job for you... not that I need to. The statistical evidence already leave your arguments in tatters.

The fact remains that the ISLAMIC LAW is to treat rape victims as criminals, for which I cited several sources.

But despite "islamic law" (which incidentally it has already been shown by Jose not to be what you claim it to) Islamic countries have less instances of rape than Western ones. Again, you just proved that your entire argument against Islam is poor.

and the point here is how Islam views such matters, isn't it?

Apparently not, because as already stated you are far more interested in demonising Islam and Muslims than you are about the actual facts of the matter, such as the statistics which prove that Islamic countries actually have vastly less of a problem when it comes to rape than the US.

Tiny isn't spamming

So you don't think that a one line post designed to calling me "blind" isn't spam, off topic, worthy only of a chat room, etc?

Would you set aside your blind defense of a religion that you don't even know very much about to think about that for a second?

You stereotype and demonise an entire religion and accuse me of not knowing much about the religion? That is rich...

Has it occurred to you that perhaps that is significant?

Well from what I can see you are more worried what a few hardline religious bigots have to say than statistical evidence which proves that rape is not nearly as prevailant in Islamic countries as it is in western countries. A point which utterly disproves your position that Islam and muslims are more morally degenerate. You can bang on about Islamic law until the sun goes down. but that does not alter the fact that statistically you are more likely to be raped in the US than you are in Pakistan. A point which says a lot more about the societies than the laws to deal with the events.

[Mia]

I never said rape was more prevalent, in fact several posts back I said that is not what we're arguing. At least, I'm not. I'm arguing that it is condoned, by the religion itself, and you don't seem to think there is anything amiss there.

Once again, you dodged all my citations to how Shaira views rape. I am not demonizing Islam, that is a strawman, I see some serious flaws with it, and the way it treats rape is merely one.

Back to prevalence for a second though, do you think that most rapes are reported in Pakistan? What would be the point since the woman is victimized further?

[Chris the Chees]

I never said rape was more prevalent

No, you apparently just think that law (a reaction to criminality) is more important than actual criminality its self.

I'm arguing that it is condoned, by the religion itself, and you don't seem to think there is anything amiss there.

Well as "Islamic law" as you wrongly put it, hands out 100 lashes for rape, i don't think they do condone it. You found widely reported examples where women are raped and then the court wrongly sides with men. You, as I pointed out several posts back, have yet to prove that that was at all prevailant.

Back to prevalence for a second though, do you think that most rapes are reported in Pakistan?

You think most are reported in the US? Guess again.

[Mia]

Quote by: SoylentGreen And in the eyes of Muslim countries America lacks a belief system . Americans only believe in pursuing money. Maybe the west should go back to minding its own business and leave other countries to pursue their own destiny without interference. Oh that's right there's oil in those countries America can make a profit on that . But there's only diamonds in Africa and there willing to kill themselves to give it to America so no need to interfere with the lack of basic human rights there.

Muslim nations don't care about money? Or maybe it's because it's kept in the hands of so few there, that most don't have a choice?

The Wealthy Saudis live more ostentatiously than anyone I've seen.....

I have no problem with your statement that America should not interfere so much, and I'll back that 100% when I'm not worried about the state of the citizens over there, and where the next suicide bomber is going to hit.

Not to mention, Muslims come into Western Nations and try to bring that stuff here. I see women here dressed up in their Halloween costumes and it makes me sick. Honor Killings are now taking place in Western Nations. The guy running the Arabic Store in my city, on my US Soil disapproves of my wearing shorts - ha!

If you want us not to interfere with your lifestyle, maybe it shouldn't be here, in our face all the time? Maybe the leaders of Islam should quit preaching the hate and destruction of America....if we leave you alone, will you leave us alone? Somehow I doubt it.

[Mia]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Well as "Islamic law" as you wrongly put it, hands out 100 lashes for rape, i don't think they do condone it.

How is that 'wrongly put'?

Sharia = Islamic Law.

Yes I know that rapes don't always get reported here. Do you think that Pakistani government is more encouraging of people to report? You think their stats are more accurate?

100 lashes are given out IF 4 male people witness the rape and testfy to it, or did you miss that part?

I don't think you absorbed all the info in those citations. The woman is put on trial for adultery if she claims rape. It's next to impossible to prove rape, and then she is punished for making the accusation.

I'd say that means that a hell of a lot more rapes go unreported in Pakistan. Did you read all the press over the famous case that I cited above right after it happened? It said most women kill themselves after being raped. That's what the 'honor code' dictate they do. They don't stop by and record their accusation of rape before offing themselves.

[SoylentGreen]

Mia everything you have said could so easily be turned around.
America has a few rich and many poor as well. The American rich do live ostentatiously too.
You think it sick to wear a Halloween costume (hijaab) and they think it sick to wear shorts.
Maybe the leaders of Islamic and christian countries should quit preaching hate and destruction .
Not to mention, Christians come into Islamic Nations and try to bring that stuff there.
when they (Islamic) are not worried about the state of the citizens (Americans)over there.

..if Islam leave America alone, will America leave Islam alone? Somehow I doubt it.

[Mia]

I can wear shorts in KSA? Islam is allowed to bring cultural aspects here, we are not allowed to take ours there.

[Nono]

Quote by: Chees This thread was origionally a criticism that Muslims are morally degenerate; a point countered by the fact that the West is just as bad if not worse.

The original point of this thread hardly counts, now that tiny has dredged it up and relaunched it. It now is what it now is.

That some Islamic law courts, note that is not the law, made some disgusting decisions is neither here nor there.

What wields authority, the courts or dusty law books full of dead letters? The courts, naturally -- we're talking about Pakistan, where the rule of law is a laughing matter.

You need me to divide a figure by two???

Jeez, Chees, you have a touching faith in the validity of official rape statistics in a place like Pakistan. (And don't challenge me to somehow prove what I mean by "place like". That country is absolutely notorious.)

[sevendogs]

Muslims should be foreced to accept culture of countries, where they live. This is the only way to deal with them. if you do not like it, leave it.

[rmnunez]

Muslims do have to accept the culture of the places where they go to live, but at those places different societies have more tolerance for foreign practices, different communities are often handled with more respect.

Just as we can reasonably demand from Muslims conduct that doesn't go against local custom, to the degree we are tolerant of their differences, we can demand discretion in the expression of their difference.

But in Pakistan (Saudi Arabia, Iran, parts of Afghanistan, Sudan, Chad or elsewhere) the custom is very different. There the reciprocal should apply; one may only be critical to the degree one is intolerant.

But its hard not to be intolerant of prevailing Muslim practices, particularly as they relate to institutionalized and government-enforced gender, ethnic and religious discrimination. Criticism will rise as interaction between the two communities grows.

This is why the local practice and those Suecas must also be part of the picture.

[GHook93]

Quote by: jose ouch, you didn't like the comparison of a muslim rapist to an Israeli rapist criticism where its due, or do you support the Israeli presidents right to walk away from rape charges

Muslim (such as Pakistan) citizens get away with it because of how their morally bankrupt society is structured. The Israeli President situation was based on Politics. It is plain ignorant to compare a head of state with an ordinary citizen. In fact, Sadam and Sadam's son's repeatedly raped and brutualized women and they were never charged (at least until the US invaded the country). The same happens in Somilia and other Muslim countries. The fact that Israel took action is a testment to their damnation of rape. In fact a large amount of Israelis and Jews have spoken out against the lax punishment, which would never have happened in a Muslim country.

If it was a Muslim country (say Palestine), the President would have been rewarded a medal and the story would never have gotten out. The "victim" would have been shunned by society.