Muslim Rape Wave in Sweden (religion of peace alert)

[Mia]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Well, I think we have established that it is no longer sanctioned by the law as Sharia courts no longer judge rape cases and even when they did, you incorrectly, assume that the 'law' dictated that men could not be considered rapists. In short that was a dodge and a not very good one. You ignore our cultures problems and focus only on those you think are ethically and culturally inferior and when challenged you simply repeat your charge that some Islamic countries are worse without once actually providing any statistical evidence.

This is referring to Pakistan only - you saw there is a new law. Has it been used? Are there any examples of women that have successfully prosecuted rape?

You don't see anything wrong in the fact that up until a few months ago gang-raping a woman because her older brother slept with the wrong woman was seen as an action of 'honor'? You can tell me with a straight face that is not perverse?

[Chris the Chees]

Are there any examples of women that have successfully prosecuted rape?

Well the burden of proof is upon you. You claim that Pakistan is an example of a nation which has Islamic misogynist law and law enforcement. As such it is your responcibility to prove it as it is a claim you are making; don't expect me to disprove arguments you have failed to back up with any evidence in the first place.

You don't see anything wrong in the fact that up until a few months ago gang-raping a woman because her older brother slept with the wrong woman was seen as an action of 'honor'?

Great straw man there, where did I claim that it was not bad that rape occurs in Pakistan? Please do show me. To reply using similar tactics do you not think it bad that a full third of marriages in the US see some form of domestic violence and that a full 6th of US women are the victims of either rape or attempted rape?

And we return to the same point I raised a year and a half ago, you criticise Islam, but fail to hold our own society, in which rape is equally, if not more, common, to the same standards. Now why is that Mia?

[Mia]

For the third time, because the LAW OF OUR LAND does not support it.

Do you deny that Pakistanis did up until a few months ago?

The burden of proof is not on me. I'm stating how it has been, that is not in dispute, you are stating that it's now different, and I'm asking for proof that's it's actually different as of last year and not just 'on the books' as the new official policy.

Do you or do you not see a problem with the fact that up until last year, rape was handled how it was in Pakistan?

Do you or do you not see the difference between incidents of rape, that happen in every society, and rape sanction by LAW, in some nations?

[Mia]

Quote by: Chris the Chees And we return to the same point I raised a year and a half ago, you criticise Islam, but fail to hold our own society, in which rape is equally, if not more, common, to the same standards. Now why is that Mia?

A year and a half ago? Wasn't I still arguing on the side of Islam then?

[Chris the Chees]

For the third time, because the LAW OF OUR LAND does not support it.

And what has that to do with the price of fish in East Ham? This thread was origionally a criticism that Muslims are morally degenerate; a point countered by the fact that the West is just as bad if not worse. That some Islamic law courts, note that is not the law, made some disgusting decisions is neither here nor there.

The burden of proof is not on me.

Yeah, it is. You make claims, you back them up; if you don't, won't or can't then they will be rejected. As such unless you want your points to be dismissed, you must A. prove Pakistan does not and never did enforce anti-rape laws and opnely had laws which legalise rape (which is what you have implied) and B. show that examples of misogynist decisions by the courts were not only wide spread but common place.

Enjoy.

you are stating that it's now different, and I'm asking for proof that's it's actually different as of last year and not just 'on the books' as the new official policy.

Wrong, I never claimed things were different, I calimed the law was different. You are the one who is seemingly to be impling that the change in the law will have made no difference. Fine, but don't try and pretend that, that it either effects my position, is my claim or that I have to prove it; you do.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Mia This is referring to Pakistan only - you saw there is a new law. Has it been used? Are there any examples of women that have successfully prosecuted rape? You don't see anything wrong in the fact that up until a few months ago gang-raping a woman because her older brother slept with the wrong woman was seen as an action of 'honor'? You can tell me with a straight face that is not perverse?

I 2nd this. Wait to see how effective (or more likely ineffective) the law is before you claim it to be a great step forward.

In America The Civil Rights Act was created in 1866, yet it took nearly 100 years for the first cases to be brought under it. The point is laws can sometimes be only ink on paper.

[Mia]

I don't understand how you can see that Islamic law, when applied, is brutal and despicable, and separate that from Islam. Hence the term Islamic law.

[Chris the Chees]

I 2nd this. Wait to see how effective (or more likely ineffective) the law is before you claim it to be a great step forward.

I didn't claim it was a step forward. Mia claimed that as rape was dealt with in Sharia courts Pakistan was backward, or words to that effect. My point has been that despite the Wests laws (and now Pakistan dealing with the same issue in civil courts) rape is just as common as in Pakistan and most other places for that matter.

Now that Pakistan is in the exact same boat, with laws and courts dealing with rape, then it is no different from the USA in that respect.

Hence the term Islamic law.

That is not the term, it is Sharia law and you still have yet to show where it permits rape.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Well doesn't that tell you something about the Muslims you, GHook93 and Mia are attempting to demonise? That they are not only vocal enough, but overwhelmingly numerous enough when it comes to this issue that the law was changed. So much for the image you and others are trying to create of Islam, suggesting that moderates do not exist and the entire group of people and culture is/are misogynistic.

That's only in Pakistan and only because of General Musharraf's efforts to stamp out fundamentalism. Please note that he does this in the face of formidable opposition from Muslim clerics.

And I do give credit when credit is due, you know. See my thread on the shootout at the Red Mosque.

Shootout at mosque in Pakistan

[tinybear]

Quote by: Chris the Chees That is not the term, it is Sharia law and you still have yet to show where it permits rape.

Sharia law provides that you can't get a rape conviction unless the act was witnessed by 4 male witnesses who turn up to give evidence against the accused. C'mon, get real. That makes it impossible to convict the rapist. And you know what happens to a woman whose allegation of rape is unsubstantiated? Sharia law is a rapist's charter. No doubt about it.

By the way, General Musharraf's reform of the law may not get off the ground and may well turn out to be a reform in name only. My bet is it will not even be enforced in practice because of Muslim opposition.

Dhimmi Watch: Pakistan: Muslim scholars say new rape law will turn country into "free sex zone"

[Mia]

rape is just as common as in Pakistan and most other places for that matter.

Do you have stats for the prevalence of rape here vs. Pakistan?

Also, I wasn't talking about prevalence, I was talking about it going unpunished.

You said the law changed, but haven't shown me a Pakistani man in jail for rape, now have you?

Here, rapists are jailed, and the register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives, barely able to get jobs or housing....victims get counseling, sometimes restitution.....in Pakistan, the rapists go free and the woman is expected to kill herself, which normally she does.

But you don't see a difference between rape in the US and rape in Pakistan - LOL!

[tinybear]

There is none so blind as one who refuses to see.

[another day]

Quote by: tinybear Give me a list of the countries where the law enforces the abuse and unequal treatment of women. :)

Bingo. I'm a liberal for the most part, but you apologists have got it all wrong. You don't need to oppose everything the right says. The truth is that hardline muslims are dangerous and sick, just like evangelical christians in america. The truth is that it's not a few bad apples, it's a good sizable portion of the population. Go to any islamic republic if you don't believe me and see how long you last.

It's one thing when people degrade/beat/rape women because they are messed up. It's another entirely when they do it because their religion tells them its appropriate, sometimes even necessary.

It's actually very interesting this whole protective stance that you guys have over something that is obviously evil.

[rmnunez]

Chris, would you say rape and other crimes or abuse against women are more prevalent in the US, western society or in Muslim jurisdictions?

And what about these Scandinavian girls, aren't they a bit more promiscuous at earlier ages than most? I remember as a teenager in Spain, the 'Suecas' were the 'hottest' among the foreign tourists and had quite a reputation.

[Mia]

Quote by: tinybear That's only in Pakistan and only because of General Musharraf's efforts to stamp out fundamentalism. Please note that he does this in the face of formidable opposition from Muslim clerics.

And hmmmmm....isn't that partly due to our relations with him? So maybe the West does need to and CAN take part in changing some of these things?

Also, good point that the MUSLIM CLERICS are against it.

The ones leading the people in their religious beliefs are fighting fair treatment of women. But it has nothing to do with the religion:rolleyes:

[jose]

Quote by: tinybear Sharia law provides that you can't get a rape conviction unless the act was witnessed by 4 male witnesses who turn up to give evidence against the accused. C'mon, get real. That makes it impossible to convict the rapist. And you know what happens to a woman whose allegation of rape is unsubstantiated? Sharia law is a rapist's charter. No doubt about it. By the way, General Musharraf's reform of the law may not get off the ground and may well turn out to be a reform in name only. My bet is it will not even be enforced in practice because of Muslim opposition. Dhimmi Watch: Pakistan: Muslim scholars say new rape law will turn country into "free sex zone"

As in the OP that site is owned by the nice mr.Horowitz
David Horowitz (ex-Marxist) - SourceWatch
if you check the link provided on the jihadwatch site, Ulema demand WPA withdrawal, CII reformation
you will see that he is ¨economical¨ with with the truth of what was actually written the idea that 4 men are needed to witness is not true.
maybe its a middle East thing,

Israel's President Moshe Katsav has agreed a plea bargain to avoid rape charges and a prison term, the country's attorney general has said. Mr Katsav had been facing allegations of rape and sexual harassment against women who worked for him. He is now expected to get a suspended sentence for sexual harassment

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel president makes plea deal
he was accused of Rape by 8 women

The punishment for rape in Islam is the same as the punishment for zina (adultery or fornication), which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.

IslamonLine.net
which IMHO would cut rape cases if applied here

[GHook93]

Quote by: jose As in the OP that site is owned by the nice mr.Horowitz David Horowitz (ex-Marxist) - SourceWatch if you check the link provided on the jihadwatch site, Ulema demand WPA withdrawal, CII reformation you will see that he is ¨economical¨ with with the truth of what was actually written the idea that 4 men are needed to witness is not true. maybe its a middle East thing, BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel president makes plea deal he was accused of Rape by 8 women IslamonLine.net which IMHO would cut rape cases if applied here

Of course you always have to turn criticism of Muslims onto Israel. Shame on you. (1) It is completely off base, (2) Its not an apples to apples comparison, (3) Diverts the topic!

[Mia]

Quote by: Chris the Chees That is not the term, it is Sharia law and you still have yet to show where it permits rape.

'Sharia' means 'Islamic Law'

In cases of adultery, shari'ah resorts to particularly drastic measures. Rape creates an especially difficult burden of proof for the victim. Shari'ah law only provides for punishment in cases of adultery, if both parties admit to have committed the "crime". If this is not the case, four independent witnesses have to be found; however, the witnesses must be male. In cases of rape, shari'ah rules that a rapist is to be punished with 100 lashes, if unmarried, or with death by stoning, if married, since this would then constitute adultery. A pregnancy as a result of rape first of all counts as evidence of adultery committed by the woman. The rape victim then has to prove that she really was raped. In case the man - which is very likely - denies that he has raped the woman, the woman has to name four male witnesses to prove the rape. In case the woman does not find these four male witnesses - which again is very likely - she will be charged with slander. For the crime of slander, shari'ah prescribes a punishment of 80 lashes. On top of that, the woman will be charged with adultery, and is thus threatened with the death penalty, if she is married. In case, she is unmarried, the "adultery" counts as immoral behaviour and is punished with 100 lashes.

Shari'ah Law, Adultery and Rape

[Mia]

In Pakistan, a rape case raises a number of criminal law issues. The case began when a 12 year old boy allegedly has sex with a woman from a more prominent clan. The local council ordered the boy's sister to be raped as punishment of the offending family. Two members of the council and the 4 rapists were charged, convicted and sentenced to death. However, five of the men were acquitted on appeal, the sentence of the sixth was communted to life. A further appeal is pending to the Federal Sharia Court. [Jack Chin]

CrimProf Blog: Rape Ruling Under Islamic Law

These cases all unfolded according to the classic directives of the Sharia. Traditional Islamic law, which is still very much in force in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, most (if not all) of post-Taliban Afghanistan, and elsewhere, completely disregards the testimony of women in cases of a sexual nature. Aside from physical evidence, the only way to establish rape is by the testimony of four male witnesses (who, by the way, must be Muslims in good standing) who actually saw the act itself. Without these witnesses and a confession from the accused rapist, the victim will stand condemned by her very accusation: she wasn’t raped, so she must be guilty of zina.

FrontPage magazine.com :: Rape in Islam: Blaming the Victim by Robert Spencer

[Mia]

Back to my original point that Islam is incompatible with democracy and societal advancement, regardless of the fact that not all Muslims agree with all of it:

"Where an explicit command of God or His Prophet already exists, no Muslim leader or legislature, or any religious scholar can form an independent judgment not even all the Muslims of the world put together, have any right to make least alteration to it". Source: Islamic Law and Constitution - Maolana Mawdudi. Believing so is regarded as alliance to Islam itself. All books on Sharia law unequivocally maintain this dictum. Yet Sharia is not merely a codification of laws. It is the main pillar of Islamic theocracy. To its followers it is God's divine command to establish a global Islamic State in order to apply Sharia. In that sense, Sharia is the constitution of the institution of Political Islam, which is defined by its founding father, Maolana Mawdudi (1903-1971) as: - "Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere in the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and program of Islam�.. If the Muslim Party commands adequate resources it will eliminate un-Islamic governments and establish the power of Islamic governments in their stead." - Source: Jihad In Islam--Maolana Mawdudi.

Can Sharia (Islamic Law) work in the 21st Century?: Free Muslims Coalition

I used to defend Islam on many grounds - primarily being that it is ingrained in some of us that to do otherwise is racist or intolerant or whatever. But I'm not going to be held back by political correctness any longer.

Islam is a threat, to its own people and to others. So is radical Christianity, but I don't seem them anywhere close to the threat of a religion that is ruling so much of the world, and is the fastest growing.