war against the middle class and students...

[bishop]

this one's been rattling around the news this past week, but hasn't received too much attention.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/....ap/index.html

The committee this week proposed tax cuts worth $78.1 billion over five years. About $7 billion is devoted to helping people affected by hurricanes and creating special tax incentives for the Gulf Coast to entice businesses back and aid those cleaning up. <snip> Santorum said he would try to amend the tax measure with $4.5 billion in tax breaks to encourage charitable giving. It would feature a new deduction for taxpayers who currently cannot take that deduction because they do not itemize their taxes.

so.. about $80 billion in new tax cuts are being proposed in this new budget..

at the same time..

http://www.uaf.edu/sunstar/archives/...entaidcuts.htm

The House Education and Workforce Committee voted 22-19 along party lines to approve a measure that would take roughly $14.5 billion from student aid programs as part of the committee's budget reconciliation plan. The bill will go to the House floor for a full vote in the next few weeks. Part of an effort to cut $50 billion from the total congressional budget, the plan would extract savings from aid programs largely by raising taxes placed on banks that offer student loans. The bill requires lenders to pay a 1 percent insurance charge and doubles the current tax on student loans from 1.5 percent to 3 percent. Critics say the fees will inevitably be passed down to students, forcing the average student to pay roughly $5,800 more out of their own pockets.

so.. some $80 billion in new tax cuts, most of which are capital gains tax cuts (which generally only benefit the affluent).. and at the same time, tacking on some $6,000 onto student expenses who are doing everything they can to get themselves an education and secure a decent future..

what the fuck is up with this republican leadership?!? these are american values? stiffing it to the country's future like this?

[tman_ndsu08]

$7 billion is going toward helping people with hurricane damage.

What's your problem?

[bishop]

that's not the point..

[Autolykos]

What exactly do you mean by "the country's future"?

- Rob

[bishop]

young people..

while china and india are providing training to young people in medicine, technology, etc., our "leaders" are making it more difficult for americans to provide themselves with their own education. our "leaders" will readily pass photo-op legislation (such as even more money in post-katrina aid - despite the $80 billion already appropriated without ANY spending guidelines) and extend tax cuts to people who don't need them.

mind you, i'm not opposed to tax cuts, but at the expense of college kids who are paying their own way through school? they aren't even getting a quarter in LOAN money compared to the money that will be rescinded for more tax cuts. there's just something mighty wrong with this picture imo.

[Son of Belial]

If my house burned down in a freak accident, the government wouldn't pay to rebuild it. If someone's house gets wiped out in a flood, how are they more important than me? What, just because it was a flood and not a fire?

[bishop]

exactly... i'm just calling that sort of crap "photo-op legislation" for lack of a more clever term.

[Autolykos]

I happen to be one of those (former) students you speak of, Bishop. Since I had to pay my way through school, I've taken out loans. Some are from the federal government and some are from private banks.

It's important to note that some of the loans I've taken out are private. Thus, the free market already provides monetary assistance to college students (albeit normally with a co-signer). Had there been no federal student loan programs, I simply would have taken out more money in private loans.

- Rob

[Osborn F Enready]

Yea, ASSUMING you had a cosigner, good credit, and a means of payment........

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: bishop young people.. while china and india are providing training to young people in medicine, technology, etc., our "leaders" are making it more difficult for americans to provide themselves with their own education. our "leaders" will readily pass photo-op legislation (such as even more money in post-katrina aid - despite the $80 billion already appropriated without ANY spending guidelines) and extend tax cuts to people who don't need them. mind you, i'm not opposed to tax cuts, but at the expense of college kids who are paying their own way through school? they aren't even getting a quarter in LOAN money compared to the money that will be rescinded for more tax cuts. there's just something mighty wrong with this picture imo.

The government is not stopping anyone from trying to get an education in technology or medicine. All that they're doing is making more expensive to get that education.

People in America can afford to pay for it. We're the richest country in the world by far.

People in China and India can't afford it.

[bishop]

you've also completely missed the point auto... if the state is in the business of helping citizens through government services, which it IS - why are the wealthy given bigger tax cuts while students (who pay for their own education, while global competitors provide it to their youth free of charge) have to pay even more to better themselves?

it's a comparison of priorities, NOT an issue of whether/not the government should provide assistance to young people who simply want to better themselves. (not to mention the fact that the more educated our people are, the more competitive we'll be in the global economy.)

hell.. i wouldn't have as much of a complaint if the tax cuts were lowered from $80 to $64 billion so that the future of this country doesn't have to go through even more difficulty to better themselves. i've also paid my way through school, and paid part of my way through grad school (before i landed a job and the employer picked up the tab).. i've done all sorts of shitty jobs just to get some money, and i've taken out loans. so, i too know what it's like to have to put yourself through college. the shit is far from easy, and it doesn't have to be that way.

as i said.. the issue revolves around priorities.

[tman_ndsu08]

It does have to be that way.

We need business in this country a lot more than we need little sociaist wanna be brats who waste $20000 of the government's money on a liberal arts degree (IE partying every weekend and not studying) and then turn around and get a job in retail when they could've been working there for 4 years already.

Business is what made and make this the richest country in the world. We lose the business, we lose everything!

So damn right I'll give the business as many tax cuts as they require while slashing government student loans!

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 It does have to be that way. We need business in this country a lot more than we need little sociaist wanna be brats who waste $20000 of the government's money on a liberal arts degree (IE partying every weekend and not studying) and then turn around and get a job in retail when they could've been working there for 4 years already. Business is what made and make this the richest country in the world. We lose the business, we lose everything! So damn right I'll give the business as many tax cuts as they require while slashing government student loans!

And I'll give my money to people trying to become wiser, more creative, and more capable through study, instead of selling their souls, raping the environment, and destroying all competition in an attempt to become like Bill Gates, while they rip off the average consumer just so they can buy themselves a Hummer and a penthouse in Manhattan.

I think what makes this country great is not the money we have; it is the ideas we have, what we create, what we stand for. I think this country (not only this country, but we do) has the potential to become Plato's Philosopher Kings, leaders of the entire world, as an example, a symbol.

We do that by learning, and by thinking. Not by making money. Screw the money; I'll take the world, and the wisdom.

Hmmm, it is all a matter of priorities, isn't it, tman? Tell me what's so great about the money, that you'd rather have closed-minded people, and stupid people, instead of college graduates.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint And I'll give my money to people trying to become wiser, more creative, and more capable through study, instead of selling their souls, raping the environment, and destroying all competition in an attempt to become like Bill Gates

Typical socialist nonsense.


The purpose of business is to make profit, not to be a monopoly.


If you would ever take an economics class then you would learn that the only way you can have a monopoly situation is if there are barrier to entry. And the government is the only significant barrier to entry in all industry.


And another thing (although I'm just reiterating what I've already said) I'm not against anyone getting an education! Good for them to do that!

But spend your own money to do it!!!!!!! Then maybe you'll appriciate it more and study harder.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 And another thing (although I'm just reiterating what I've already said) I'm not against anyone getting an education! Good for them to do that! But spend your own money to do it!!!!!!! Then maybe you'll appriciate it more and study harder.

I'm not against businesses doing well. Good for them to do that!

But they can spend their own money to do it!

[5010]

How about feds reduce tax rates, eliminate tax breaks, reduce spending, remove laws, remove regulations, reduce services, remove foreign aid, remove foreign occupation, and create a surplus to pay off debt. Turn over federal service buildings and assets and employees to towns and let the local communities fund and handle them. Turn over federal lands to states. Just an idea.

Maybe I could afford more education if my money wasn't taken from me.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Son of Belial I'm not against businesses doing well. Good for them to do that! But they can spend their own money to do it!

WHEN DID I SAY THAT I WANTED TAX BREAKS FOR THE BUSINESS?????!!!!! I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAVE ANY! **THEY** DON'T WANT ANY!


They just needs access! And they can't buy that! It has to be the government who lets them have it.

[bishop]

the examples just keep coming...

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/11/pf/t..._amt/index.htm

Instead of including a provision for major AMT relief in 2006, House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Bill Thomas (R-Calif.) opted instead to propose a two-year extension of reduced tax rates on capital gains and dividends in a tax bill he introduced late Thursday. <snip> The capital gains and dividend extension is contentious in its own right. Under current law, the 15 percent rate (5 percent for low and middle-income taxpayers, reduced to 0 percent in 2008) is set to increase after 2008. Thomas's bill calls for current rates to be extended through 2010. Opponents of the measure say it's hard to justify an extension of a tax break that disproportionately benefits higher-income taxpayers when lawmakers, under pressure to reduce the deficit, are also proposing to cut spending on programs like Medicaid and food stamps, which affect the poor and working poor.

yup.. cut capital gains and dividends taxes, but forget about the AMT.. middle class workers deserve to pay taxes, the wealthy don't.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 WHEN DID I SAY THAT I WANTED TAX BREAKS FOR THE BUSINESS?????!!!!! I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAVE ANY!

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 So damn right I'll give the business as many tax cuts as they require while slashing government student loans!

Hypocrite.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Son of Belial Hypocrite.

I guess I was specifically talking about oil companies.