war against the middle class and students...

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Yea, ASSUMING you had a cosigner, good credit, and a means of payment........

Which I personally did and do. Of others I cannot speak. Then again, their fates are not my problem.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: bishop you've also completely missed the point auto... if the state is in the business of helping citizens through government services, which it IS - why are the wealthy given bigger tax cuts while students (who pay for their own education, while global competitors provide it to their youth free of charge) have to pay even more to better themselves? it's a comparison of priorities, NOT an issue of whether/not the government should provide assistance to young people who simply want to better themselves. (not to mention the fact that the more educated our people are, the more competitive we'll be in the global economy.)

To me, it is indeed an issue of whether or not the government should provide assitance, not only to "young people who simply want to better themselves", but to anyone for any reason. I resoundingly do not go along with the assumption that government should be in the business of "helping people".

Quote by: bishop hell.. i wouldn't have as much of a complaint if the tax cuts were lowered from $80 to $64 billion so that the future of this country doesn't have to go through even more difficulty to better themselves. i've also paid my way through school, and paid part of my way through grad school (before i landed a job and the employer picked up the tab).. i've done all sorts of shitty jobs just to get some money, and i've taken out loans. so, i too know what it's like to have to put yourself through college. the shit is far from easy, and it doesn't have to be that way. as i said.. the issue revolves around priorities.

I agree that it's a matter of priorities. My priority is to minimize government as much as possible. However, I am only one man, and I have concluded that the best course of action for myself is to keep government interference in my life as small as possible.

Why on Earth are there "national priorities" in the first place? If you want to talk about priorities, though, perhaps we should discuss why a "college education" is a priority in the first place. In my opinion, a college education is not nearly all that it's cracked up to be. It's rather like businesses and government have colluded to corral people into going through four more years of tedium and stress only to come out as slaves to debt. What I'm saying here is that I do not consider my own college education to have been "worth it" as far as the money goes -- in the end, only the piece of paper (i.e. the degree) matters.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint And I'll give my money to people trying to become wiser, more creative, and more capable through study, instead of selling their souls, raping the environment, and destroying all competition in an attempt to become like Bill Gates, while they rip off the average consumer just so they can buy themselves a Hummer and a penthouse in Manhattan.

When you pay taxes, you're not giving -- the government is taking.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I think what makes this country great is not the money we have; it is the ideas we have, what we create, what we stand for. I think this country (not only this country, but we do) has the potential to become Plato's Philosopher Kings, leaders of the entire world, as an example, a symbol.

With all due respect, I hope you're kidding here. If not, then chew on these questions: leaders of the entire world to what end(s)? A symbol of what? Why should I care whether "this country" is any kind of leader or symbol? I'm just trying to live out my own life, and so is everyone else.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint We do that by learning, and by thinking. Not by making money. Screw the money; I'll take the world, and the wisdom.

Wisdom is for naught without things to use it with.

- Rob

[bishop]

not all it's cracked up to be, eh? whatever job you have, would you have it if you didn't go to college? and if you did, how far do you think you'd be able to ascend? unless you're a bill gates type, you probably need college to have a good life. (kind of tongue in cheek for someone who's been through college to discount its worth imo.)

To me, it is indeed an issue of whether or not the government should provide assitance, not only to "young people who simply want to better themselves", but to anyone for any reason. I resoundingly do not go along with the assumption that government should be in the business of "helping people".

yes, i understand your pov, but whether/not the government should provide assistance is not what i'm asking. i know what the libertarian platform is, you don't need to remind me.


the fact of the matter is that the government IS going to engage itself in these sorts of affairs. it's a simple point of truth/reality.. i'm not debating libertarian ideals - i'm simply pointing out that since the government DOES involve itself in these matters, what does it say when it enacts policies that benefit the wealthy while making vital things like education more difficult to attain for lower/middle income students?

[Autolykos]

Fair enough. I would say that, as always, those in government care most about those who pay them the most (i.e. the wealthy).

- Rob

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Autolykos Wisdom is for naught without things to use it with. <Meaning money> - Rob

And this shows just how much we need wisdom. I'd say another country could lead us to it, since basically every other counry is wiser than us in some way, but who would we listen to? France? The UK? Japan? Nonsense. We have the resources to truly pursue some real knowledge; if you want to think about the better Viagra we could make, and how much we could sell it for, bully for you. That's still an argument for college.

A person's goal may be to live their own life; the government's goal should be to ensure that people can live the best lives they can. You say they do that by staying away from us; fine. I think learning is good for people, and therefore, they should be allowed to do it. If the government is needed to make that possible, then so be it. Whether or not college is the best place to learn may be a different debate; I learned quite a bit from my college education, and you didn't, so you say. Which of us is right? Who knows?

[Osborn F Enready]

Coffee Saint said:
A person's goal may be to live their own life; the government's goal should be to ensure that people can live the best lives they can.....

I say:
Within the limitations of the Constitution, as it is our only binding document. Government did not create the people, the people created the government they rule it, they control it, and it works to benefit them ALL or NONE.

Coffee Saint said:
You say they do that by staying away from us; fine

I say:
Once again, it isn't about OPINION, it's about the contract between the people, and the government THEY created to govern the jobs the states could not handle.

Coffee Saint said:
I think learning is good for people, and therefore, they should be allowed to do it.

I say:
Gee, so do I. I just know its beyond the auspice of the Federal Government to extort money to pay for it, at threat of loss of property, or loss of life, ESPECIALLY when the o so benevolent government you praise sets limits, that are biased, and then doles out that extorted money the way THEY see fit, not the people who are paying for it. :rolleyes:

Coffee Saint said:
If the government is needed to make that possible, then so be it.

I say:
So damn the rules, the Constitution, all of our previous contract laws, and the whole notion of government that led to its creation for our nation?

So in other words..... follow the laws and rules of society only when it meets YOUR needs, and disregard it the rest of the time?

:rolleyes: :confused: :eek:

[bishop]

the constitution doesn't say that the government cannot help students either.. all depends on interpretation.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: Son of Belial If my house burned down in a freak accident, the government wouldn't pay to rebuild it. If someone's house gets wiped out in a flood, how are they more important than me? What, just because it was a flood and not a fire?

We are, amazingly enough, in agreement

The federal government has adopted far too an invasive role in the recovery from this local problem. While some aid, in forms such as tax incentives for rebuilding, easing or some regulatory rules, even some aid from the Army Corps of Engineers would be acceptable.

But not what has been proposed.

[Osborn F Enready]

Bishop said:
the constitution doesn't say that the government cannot help students either.. all depends on interpretation.

I say:
No it didn't, but how could it since it COULDN'T directly tax the citizenry? Hard to create laws that aren't capable of being carried out.

[bishop]

the nazi-controlled house never ceases to screw the middle class..

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/....ap/index.html

cut everything that benefits the lower/middle classes and shift all that spending for new tax cuts for the uberrich... just fucking great.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: bishop what the fuck is up with this republican leadership?!? these are american values? stiffing it to the country's future like this?

American values are not equated with American hand outs.

So if you want to go to college and have the head to do so, go for it. Just don't expect hand outs beyond what is available in community and state colleges.
Those tuitions are relatively low compared to the 45k required for a year at a private school and kids can get loans they of course will have to pay back.

There are also lots of scholarships and grants out there.

The government can't pay for everything.

I had to pay for mine, went to community college during the day and worked grave yard. Later went to a state college and had to pay. You don't see me crying and moaning about it.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: bishop the nazi-controlled house never ceases to screw the middle class.. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/....ap/index.html cut everything that benefits the lower/middle classes and shift all that spending for new tax cuts for the uberrich... just fucking great.

What makes you think the middle class can't afford a local community and state college?

[bishop]

way to miss the point.. why am i not surprised....

if they passed these spending cuts and retained all of that money to help balance the budget, that would be a completely different story.. instead, they just shifted this money towards people who could use it much less than those who currently benefit from it. why do the uberrich deserve handouts from the government more than kids paying for their own education? and yes, since all this money is being borrowed, it IS a handout..

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: bishop way to miss the point.. why am i not surprised.... if they passed these spending cuts and retained all of that money to help balance the budget, that would be a completely different story.. instead, they just shifted this money towards people who could use it much less than those who currently benefit from it. why do the uberrich deserve handouts from the government more than kids paying for their own education? and yes, since all this money is being borrowed, it IS a handout..

You are wrong, you mentioned middle class and college and they can afford a community college or state college while working on the side.
Bottom line, government isn't supposed to give endless handouts. That is a source of welfare.

These kids can get student loans if they have any form of head. So all is not lost.

[bishop]

bottom line - the government IS giving handouts to the richest people in the country.

the government simply took the handouts going to lower income people and gave them to the wealthiest..

seems like you still don't get the point. what a pity.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: bishop bottom line - the government IS giving handouts to the richest people in the country. the government simply took the handouts going to lower income people and gave them to the wealthiest.. seems like you still don't get the point. what a pity.

Where?

The richest people you refer to pay close to all the taxes in the nation. The bottom half pay practically zero.

You oppress those who are special and have done well that earn and you will get job layoffs and retirement instead of an incentive to stick it out and grow.

Look to California, we have an extremely liberal Democrat legislature in the state and all that is happening is people are leaving the state because of oppressive conditions.

Why work 80 hours a week and employ 200 people if the government is going to get you taxed or sued out of business due to liberal ideals that don't exist in the real world?

[bishop]

so, you're saying that we should be giving hand outs to the very wealthy, right?

and here i was thinking that you were against hand outs...

[Protostar]

Quote by: bishop so, you're saying that we should be giving hand outs to the very wealthy, right? and here i was thinking that you were against hand outs...

Not handouts. The money that the wealthy will get back was already theirs to begin with before the federal government STOLE it via income taxes (along with many other taxes) to pay for the many socialist programs it has instituted. Less money for the government is ALWAYS good in my book.

[bishop]

Quote by: Protostar Not handouts. The money that the wealthy will get back was already theirs to begin with before the federal government STOLE it via income taxes (along with many other taxes) to pay for the many socialist programs it has instituted. Less money for the government is ALWAYS good in my book.

can you understand the difference between giving tax cuts via deficit spending, versus giving tax cuts with a balanced budget?

they're two completely different things..