State of Emergency Declared in France, etc.

[Boetie]

The problem in France may be that the people causing the riot can never feel French, even though they are legally French.

Here in America, anyone can feel American.

Do you think an Indian in Japan can ever feel japanese? Even if the Indian is a fourth generation in Japan.

I know I am simplifying this but I don't think my post should be ruled out.

[Nono]

Well they could feel French if they could get out of the ghetto straightjacket. One thing that would help is jobs. Compare these Afro-Arab kids with French people of Indochinese descent -- of which there are many -- who have integrated much better though they look strikingly unFrench.

Also, France ain't no Japan.

[bishop]

Quote by: Nono You mean: the French have always done what they deem to be in their interest. If you think the French are in the habit of "ignoring" problems generated by Islamism, how do you explain the energy with which, over the past 10 years, they've been deporting non-French nationals preaching the stuff and taking off the streets French nationals they find dangerous? I've been greatly amused by the breadth of the French-are-this and French-are-that remarks made on this board the past few days.

grandpa mentioned this, but the headscarves ban was a very symbolic example of how the french have ignored problems with their muslim cummunities.. or, maybe ignore is the wrong word, but the french certainly seem anxious about these foreign people.. if they didn't, they wouldn't move to ban headscarves, and they would do more to integrate them into the country - rather than huddle them in ethnic ghettos.. of course, if they were to empower them, that could pose political problems - and, how many french really want these people in their country? (re: le penn)

it seems that the french initially assumed that these people would fit right in, and now it's clear that they didn't have much of a plan to help these people fit in.. or, these immigrant's culture is the antithesis of french culture. - and if that's the case it's amazing that they didn't foresee this happening.


and as far as jobs go... unemployment in france is chronically high regardless of ethnicity. yes, unemployement amongst the established communities isn't as high (almost half that of muslim communities) - but it's still damn high regardless. and it's been high for quite a long time. i don't disagree that there's an economic factor to this issue, but there are other pieces (like the french government "ignoring" the issue of assimilation/naturalization) that are also relevant.

[grandpa]

Quote by: bishop grandpa mentioned this, but the headscarves ban was a very symbolic example of how the french have ignored problems with their muslim cummunities.. or, maybe ignore is the wrong word, but the french certainly seem anxious about these foreign people..

I don't have high expectations for France. I'm not a France-bashing, Bill O'Relly type, but I just don't think France is going to resolve this soon.
Nor do I see rioting as the path to true reform.

Grandpa h.

[Nono]

Re headscarves, you Americans are damned sensitive -- at least your founding fathers were -- about certain things that your anti-British rebellion was launched to free you of. The French Revolution overthrew a monarchy based on divine right accorded by a stifling, megalomaniac Catholic Church. Therefore the French are damned touchy about anything that might threaten the secular state. Secular education if a bulwark of secular society.
If you claim inalienable aspects of your republic, I think you can allow the French to do the same.

I have mixed feelings about the headscarf ban. But I do know a teacher in France who told me some of her colleagues were finding it difficult to do their job what with girls in the class looking like they belonged to the KKK. Something had to be done.

[Nono]

Yes, integration of Muslim minority groups is a problem across Europe, but especially in France, where they constitute a much higher percentage of the population (see French colonialism). The banlieues are full of kids not only themselves condemned to unemployment but whose parents have never been in steady employment -- never ever. Imagine that. It's a very serious problem, not least since it makes assimilation virtually impossible. These problems are all interconnected.

[Clarence]

The French gave us the Statue if Liberty. I know that much. It's the thought that counts. It's never good to stereotype humans based on their leaders. Even if they live in a democracy. I'm curious about the story of the Statue of Liberty. All I know is what I learned sometime in public education here in the states. nothing. maybe this is unrelated...

[Compugasm]

Quote by: bishop the headscarves ban was a very symbolic example of how the french have ignored problems with their muslim cummunities... ...it seems that the french initially assumed that these people would fit right in, and now it's clear that they didn't have much of a plan to help these people fit in.

Maybe these two things are related. Maybe the ban doesn't ignore the problem, but is an attempt to addresses it after all. I mean, how can you "fit in", when you obviously go out of your way to stand out? Consider Halloween. On this day, you can dress like Dracula, and this is perfectly normal. However, dress like Dracula tomorrow, and people will ask "What's with the cape"? I must accept that capes are just not situationally appropriate. Bathing suits are for the beach, and not appropriate work attire.

I can't belive a Government is reponsible for making people fit in, when people make every attempt to stand out. I've noticed "foreigners" where I work adopt "American" names. They're making an attempt to fit in. It would seem to make communication easier if Marraokesh Lapmoongeshka, was simply shortend to Mark, or a nickname like "Moonie". The more I think about it, the same issues apply too many daily activities like food, language, etc.

[Nono]

The problem here is twofold.

First, a lot of Muslim and African immigrants in France feel like a lot of Blacks in the US: no matter how hard they try they'll never "fit in" to White society. Other immigrants adopt all sorts of strategies to fit in, and eventually do, but Blacks are the elephant in the national living room. It's somewhat the same in France.

Second, there's a portion of the Muslim immigrant population in France (and across Europe) that feels quite superior morally and culturally to the indigenous population. It's the old all-French-girls-are-whores-look-how-they-dress-etc-etc. problem. This much more severe than anything North Americans may have experienced with Sicilian immigrants, say, in the past century. Again, this is a problem -- intractable and dangerous -- across Europe.

[Compugasm]

Is that really "white society"? It can't simply be a stigma excluding you from participation. Otherwise, fat people, women, smokers, red hair, and old people should be rioting. It's tough to be different, but ultimately no-one is the same. Lets say all us white people goto "Little America" section of an Iranian city and riot against arabic socieity, is it the racist arabs fault?

[Nono]

There are people who can't abide corpulence or red hair, or whatever. But nothing in the US is on the scale of -- or has such deep historical and psychological and sociological roots as -- as the Black-White divide. De facto segregation continues to exist from one end of the country to the other.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Nono I have mixed feelings about the headscarf ban. But I do know a teacher in France who told me some of her colleagues were finding it difficult to do their job what with girls in the class looking like they belonged to the KKK. Something had to be done.

I personally think banning headscarves was a terrible idea. It has nothing to do with my being sensitive, but the fact that it's completely irresponsible and non-secular.
I also would object to schools banning kids from wearing crosses around their necks. That is also a terrible idea and I wouldn't stand for it--and I'm not Christian or Muslim.

Grandpa h.

[Zealot]

Quote by: grandpa I personally think banning headscarves was a terrible idea. It has nothing to do with my being sensitive, but the fact that it's completely irresponsible and non-secular. I also would object to schools banning kids from wearing crosses around their necks. That is also a terrible idea and I wouldn't stand for it--and I'm not Christian or Muslim. Grandpa h.

But since we are not there and really know the problem, maybe are feelings are not well informed, huh?

Zealot

[Nono]

Quote by: grandpa It's completely (...) non-secular.

No, it's completely secular. Check it out. What you may have heard about it regards headscarves. But what the law actually says is that any ostentatious religious insignia is banned. That is, some discreet symbol of religious adherence (such as a small cross as a lapel pin) is OK.
Judging what constitutes indiscreet -- and therefore responsibility for implementing the law -- is wisely left up to the school staff.

A girl who's covered from top to bottom in a sheet cannot take part in the education process. Yet public education is mandatory in France. What would you have done?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Zealot But since we are not there and really know the problem, maybe are feelings are not well informed, huh? Zealot

It's not about "feelings" Zealot. It's about principles. If the French government was banning crosses around people's necks I bet you'd be foaming at the mouth.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Nono No, it's completely secular. Check it out. What you may have heard about it regards headscarves. But what the law actually says is that any ostentatious religious insignia is banned. That is, some discreet symbol of religious adherence (such as a small cross as a lapel pin) is OK. Judging what constitutes indiscreet -- and therefore responsibility for implementing the law -- is wisely left up to the school staff. A girl who's covered from top to bottom in a sheet cannot take part in the education process. Yet public education is mandatory in France. What would you have done?

That is not completely secular. In fact, it is not secular.
I would have not banned headscarves, as that is not something a government should do. It risks creating conflict, and I think it already has created conflict.

Grandpa h.

[Zealot]

Quote by: grandpa It's not about "feelings" Zealot. It's about principles. If the French government was banning crosses around people's necks I bet you'd be foaming at the mouth. Grandpa h.

If crosses were causing a problem I would have no problem sir. BTW my friend, there are many Christians symbols that have been banned in our schools already, you know that. Do we burn cars and buildings to protest that? Do you approve of what the Muslims are doing there in France? It seems that anything America does is wrong and the rest of the world is right in your viewpoint?

Zealot

[grandpa]

Quote by: Zealot If crosses were causing a problem I would have no problem sir.

Well, then I am corrected. But regardless, why would they cause a problem? Wearing a cross around your neck as a student is very different from placing the ten commandments in front of city hall.

Quote by: Zealot there are many Christians symbols that have been banned in our schools already, you know that. Do we burn cars and buildings to protest that? Do you approve of what the Muslims are doing there in France? It seems that anything America does is wrong and the rest of the world is right in your viewpoint?

I've never heard of someone banning a cross around necks in a school in America. maybe it has happened, but I don't agree with it. I think teachers shouldn't wear religious items in class, sure. But the students should be able to do so.

As for France, I do not support the rioting--nor do I think it is happening largely because of the headscarve ban--but such things may play a role. My point was, rather than being secular, this action was NON-secular.

Grandpa h.

[Zealot]

Quote by: grandpa Well, then I am corrected. But regardless, why would they cause a problem? Wearing a cross around your neck as a student is very different from placing the ten commandments in front of city hall. I've never heard of someone banning a cross around necks in a school in America. maybe it has happened, but I don't agree with it. I think teachers shouldn't wear religious items in class, sure. But the students should be able to do so. As for France, I do not support the rioting--nor do I think it is happening largely because of the headscarve ban--but such things may play a role. My point was, rather than being secular, this action was NON-secular. Grandpa h.

The problem is socialism Gramps, just like what is happening here. They opened the borders and allowed an over abundance of immigrants who had little or no interest if becoming French citizens. Not only France, but other EU countries are going to have the same problems, some are already. These people want to take over the country, there is no doubt about it. Check it out!

[zynner]

As I understand it, the reason for the riots is French non-Muslim racism against French Muslims. This is manifested in several ways, such as very high unemployment among Muslims (they cannot get jobs even when they are much better qualified) and police harassment when they go into the main city.

French socialism has lead not only to high taxation but also high unemployment, with the persecuted minority getting the shaft the hardest.

~ zynner