State of Emergency Declared in France, etc.

[Nono]

Quote by: leftcider The French North African Muslims were deliberately brought in from a former colony to fill labor shortages and were set up in these government built ghettos. No parallel exists in America.

Thank God we're finally off-topic here; almost two pages without discussing the US was making me nervous.

How would you classify the slaves brought into the US South, leftcider, and their descendants now living in the projects?

Both the US and France have this underclass. In America's case it makes up a full 10% of the population.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: leftcider No parallel exists in America.

Not according to the History of Immigration, and the speeches of Booker T. Washington and W.E.B Du Bois.

"...Du Bois pointed out that mass immigration hurt both black and white laborers, and he foreshadowed future events by noting the Republican Party platform of 1864, which advocated increased immigration in the interest of big business..."

I don't think it matters what country your talking about, the economic effects of immigration would be the same, even thought the policy for allowing it to occur are obviously different.

[rmnunez]

Deport all foreigners involved in the riots (breach of residency conditions). If things don't immediately subside, deport all French citizens with dual nationality (incompatible conduct aggravated by the state of emergency). The French can show their humanitarian side by arranging for the collective deportation of each holligan's entire extended family.

[Nono]

Well, rum, I can see why you so enthusiastically embrace the Bush oil-securing policy in the Middle East, because your prescription would make things worse in France in the same way that it's become a shambles in Iraq.

The alienation of Arab and African youth in France is a domestic problem susceptible only of domestic solutions. Might as well evacuate Chiapas, eh?

[RickSp]

Quote by: rmnunez Deport all foreigners involved in the riots (breach of residency conditions). If things don't immediately subside, deport all French citizens with dual nationality (incompatible conduct aggravated by the state of emergency). The French can show their humanitarian side by arranging for the collective deportation of each holligan's entire extended family.

That is actually funny. Most of the rioters appear to be young French citizens, born in France, raised in France of North African parents. You seem to suggest that the response to riots triggered by French racism and exclusion is more racism and exclusion. Once again you are violating the "first rule of holes" - when you are in one, stop digging.

[rmnunez]

Frtench citizens, with no other nationality, even if raised by North Africans or Muslims, should be afforded the same due process and formalities prevalent for all French citizens. The perpetration of certain violent acts, in a declared state of emergency carries with it aggravated punishment -even for French citizens which could not be as easily deported.

What I want to see is a modification of EU foreign policy relating to immigration -and the French can take the lead here. I want the EU, and particularly France, to come out and say "immigration is as conditioned -riots by foreigners are not allowed." Presence in France is at the pleasure of the French government which can condition it to the strictest adherence to the laws of their Republic.

[leftcider]

Quote by: Nono Thank God we're finally off-topic here; almost two pages without discussing the US was making me nervous.

I'm flattered.

Quote by: Nono How would you classify the slaves brought into the US South, leftcider, and their descendants now living in the projects? Both the US and France have this underclass. In America's case it makes up a full 10% of the population.

Read what I was responding to. Zealot blamed the riot on multiculturalism "like we have in America", and I was shifting the blame away from multiculturalism to intentional ghettoization.

There are similarities, but the situation/histories of the French and American situations today have substantial differences. US importation of slave labor happened 150+ years ago, while the French importation of wage labor happened 40 years ago. The histories and cultures are different in regards to minority race treatment.

[rmnunez]

US importation of slave labor happened 150+ years ago, while the French importation of wage labor happened 40 years ago.

"slave labor" 150+ years ago was literally that, actual people forced to work without compensation for life. That ended earlier in France than in the US. The "wage labor" importation by France (and the rest of the EU) is ongoing and contemporaneous with this in the US.

The EU is awash with undocumented aliens, each member with its own historical idiosyncrases; Britain gets lots of Asians, particularly Indians and Pakistanis, but also Caribbeans and assorted Subsaharans, France gets lots of North Africans and some Subsaharans, plenty of Eastern Europeans. In Germany Turks, Poles, Balts and assorted Eastern Europeans. Italy gets Albanians and Yugoslavs of all ethnicities, apparently lots of Chinese too. In Spain we find Moroccans, Latin Americans and Eastern Europeans. These people are basically "economic refugees", the Eastern Europeans, Indians, Latin Americans and some Turks and Pakistanis are often well educated. Some of the Subsaharans and North Africans are probably also environmental refugees and displaced by war.

The histories and cultures are different in regards to minority race treatment

There are also shared traits, every European culture cherishes its own and highlights their respective importance in the national identity. Scots, Serbs, Celts, Franks, Bretons, Catalans, all prattle about the gift to humanity "their peoples" brought. The homogenization inherent in EU evolution and the obligations assumed in decolonization processes have worked against those natural ethnic identities which are now exclusive "Origin Denominations" for fancy wines, but once represented sturdy cultures with their own regional dress, local drink, spiced cheese or embroidered tapestry. Instead we've got these modern EU commuters of indistinguishable citizenship and all these obvious foreigners.

[Clarence]

Quote by: Zealot Yes Grampa, the Muslims too have a way of inciting the worst. Zealot

Extremist idiots come from christianity as often as muslim. http://apnews.myway.com//article/200...D8DQ1GH80.html
my guess is that, like usual, everybody messed up. and to fix mistakes, messed up some more. How did people ever get along long enough for gov'ts to form in the first place?

[Son of Belial]

Didn't I already post a list of killers and atrocities that were brought about in recent history by Christians? Are we still arguing this?

[Zealot]

Quote by: Son of Belial Didn't I already post a list of killers and atrocities that were brought about in recent history by Christians? Are we still arguing this?

Tell me again Son, in which nation is it illegal to teach, preach and proselytize any religion other than Christianity? Does the French Christian bomb,torch and demolish any African nations?

Zealot

[Matt W]

Did you see anything about Algeria in the '60s, Zealot?

[Zealot]

Quote by: Matt W Did you see anything about Algeria in the '60s, Zealot?

THe state of emergency in France is now Matt, 2005....name me a nation that bans non-Christians, today Matt. can you?

Zealot

[Matt W]

No, Zealot, but there is this thing called revenge...you may have heard of it?

[Nono]

Zealot has a point that there is an overtly nasty streak in Islam and that preaching religious relativism does nothing to erase the reality of that streak. Is this nastiness (slavery, veiled and muted women, horrific punishments for minor offences, etc., etc.) due to culture or religion? How exactly do you tell the two apart? Hard to say. But there's no point pretending that Islamic culture is basically just like Christian culture. It ain't.

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez The homogenization inherent in EU evolution (…) we've got these modern EU commuters of indistinguishable citizenship and all these obvious foreigners.

That's globalization, rum, not the EU. Gotta decide which side you're on.

[Zealot]

Quote by: Matt W No, Zealot, but there is this thing called revenge...you may have heard of it?

Good, then we have established the fact that the non-Christians are the bullys, right? They are tearing France apart.

Zealot

[Nono]

Quote by: Z We have established the fact that the non-Christians are the bullys, right? They are tearing France apart.

What the hell do you know about it, Z? Obviously nothing. First of all, France is not being "torn apart". In fact -- and sorry to dampen the week-long orgasm among US right-wingers here -- the trouble has now largely calmed down. What you had was an explosion of anger from an underclass with no prospects (sound familiar?). If the French government doesn't take action, it will explode again at some point.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Nono Zealot has a point that there is an overtly nasty streak in Islam and that preaching religious relativism does nothing to erase the reality of that streak. Is this nastiness (slavery, veiled and muted women, horrific punishments for minor offences, etc., etc.) due to culture or religion? How exactly do you tell the two apart? Hard to say. But there's no point pretending that Islamic culture is basically just like Christian culture. It ain't.

If your perspective is narrow enough, you may be right. In a historical perspective the offenses committed in the name of either Islam or Christianity effectively balance out. There were significant periods of history where the Islamic states were the more pluralisitic and the Christian states the barbarous.

All of which has nothing to do with the disruption going on in France that have almost nothing to do with religion and everything to do with French culture.

[Nono]

Quote by: Rick In a historical perspective the offenses committed in the name of either Islam or Christianity effectively balance out.

No, my perspective is much narrower, and justifiably so. What we're talking about here is Islamic society today compared with Christian society today -- the wonders of Moorish Andalusia versus the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition are not relevant. What's relevant is this: What do you see walking down the street in Marrakech or Karachi or Jakarta and what, by comparison, do you see in Munich or Montgomery? Or what might you see in a jail cell in any of those places? For whatever reasons, there's a nasty streak to Islamic society that we've been trying to get over ever since the Enlightenment.

The two don't balance out.

All of which has nothing to do with the disruption going on in France that have almost nothing to do with religion and everything to do with French culture.

What is it specifically about French culture that's any more bigoted or exploitative than Finnish, say, or American culture? Nothing.

No. The problems in France range all the way from brutal, racist cops (which you'll find anywhere) to freemarketeering politicians (see N. Sarkozy) who chose to do nothing about the cops, cut funding on useful projects and generally pretend that the problems didn't exist anyway.