IRS Threatens Episcopal Church for Antiwar Sermon:

[grandpa]

IRS Threatens Episcopal Church for Antiwar Sermon:
http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news5/latimes10.htm
"The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election."

Another article:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...a/13103613.htm

Grandpa h.

[brien]

Quote by: grandpa IRS Threatens Episcopal Church for Antiwar Sermon: http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news5/latimes10.htm "The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election." Another article: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...a/13103613.htm Grandpa h.

Maybe it is time for all churches to "lose" their tax exempt status. But surely not for exercising their 1st Amendment Rights. Just maybe, because the time has come?

[ericsp23]

If the church was making a political statement (ie, in support of a particular candidate or proposition) then I have no problem with them losing their tax exempt status, as long as the standard is being equally applied to all of the evangelical churches that get involved in politics.
If the sermon was a non-political look at the ethics of war, then it is wrong for them to lose their tax exempt status.

[RickSp]

Quote by: ericsp23 If the church was making a political statement (ie, in support of a particular candidate or proposition) then I have no problem with them losing their tax exempt status, as long as the standard is being equally applied to all of the evangelical churches that get involved in politics. If the sermon was a non-political look at the ethics of war, then it is wrong for them to lose their tax exempt status.

Given all the political activities undertaken by the fundamentalists, it is telling that the IRS is beating up on a liberal denomination.

[grandpa]

Quote by: RickSp Given all the political activities undertaken by the fundamentalists, it is telling that the IRS is beating up on a liberal denomination.

I agree. Clinton could have easily went after the Jerry Falwell types for the same thing.

Grandpa h.

[samsara15]

The double standard is a way of life in political discourse. For all sides, forever. Human beings and lies are a constant in human history.

[CoffeeSaint]

Why do we have to let it stop there? Fight the double standard: don't lie. Tell people with whom you have some influence not to lie. How did we get to the point where everyone accepts falsehood, hypocrisy, double standards?

"It is discouraging to think how many are shocked by honesty, and how few by deceit." Noel Coward

We shouldn't be like this.
Remove tax exempt status from all churches. Why should they be exempt, anyway? In a time when the church was a rallying point for community, when all of a community could be served by one (or even by many) churches, this would make sense. Is there a reason for it now, when so many people gain nothing from a church?

[Jack]

it is telling that the IRS is beating up on a liberal denomination.

This is the first time I've heard someone refer to the Episcopal church as a liberal denomination. I always thought that as one of the major mainstream denominations, they were pretty staid. I've known a few liberal Episcopalian priests, but they weren't considered common.
No matter; I agree with taxing them. All philosophical groups, be they religious or UFO-oriented, should be treated equally.

[oranged]

I still fail to see reason for religious groups to get any tax exempt status at all. Rreligious groups are private organizations, but they often control land and resources just like everyone else.

[PatrickHenry]

You atheist wankers can kiss my Christian ass! We have tax exempt status because property tax is the State fucking with religion.

Property tax is also the State extracting rent for property that popular myth says belongs to another entity. All property tax should be abolished.

Pastors and other religious workers should not be exempt from any tax codes applied to others...

[Zealot]

Quote by: grandpa I agree. Clinton could have easily went after the Jerry Falwell types for the same thing. Grandpa h.

How about Jesse Jackson and Sharpton? If I were running a church, you betcha I would expose the sins of our beloved politicians. Remember the big Bible Clinton used to go to church with.
Zealot

[Zealot]

Quote by: grandpa IRS Threatens Episcopal Church for Antiwar Sermon: http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news5/latimes10.htm "The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election." Another article: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...a/13103613.htm Grandpa h.

Good, it's about time they pick on the liberal churches. Zealot

[Zealot]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Why do we have to let it stop there? Fight the double standard: don't lie. Tell people with whom you have some influence not to lie. How did we get to the point where everyone accepts falsehood, hypocrisy, double standards? "It is discouraging to think how many are shocked by honesty, and how few by deceit." Noel Coward We shouldn't be like this. Remove tax exempt status from all churches. Why should they be exempt, anyway? In a time when the church was a rallying point for community, when all of a community could be served by one (or even by many) churches, this would make sense. Is there a reason for it now, when so many people gain nothing from a church?

TAINT true Saint, a lot of people gain much from church. Do you have stats for that statement?

Zealot

[Matt W]

Good, it's about time they pick on the liberal churches. Zealot

Nice to see you love your fellow Christians, Zealot....

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Matt W Nice to see you love your fellow Christians, Zealot....

LOL! Yeah, where's the grace and mercy of the Lord, Z?

[SteveA]

Thanks for posting this, Zealot.

I saw this article earlier also and was going to copy it here, but you did it for me. :)

Quote by: brien Maybe it is time for all churches to "lose" their tax exempt status. But surely not for exercising their 1st Amendment Rights. Just maybe, because the time has come?

I agree with you Brien. Government is going to take what it wants anyway, so it's not like there's really a way to opt out of taxes - what you don't pay at church, they'll take from you personally. I'd prefer to see churches (and most other organizations) not worry about the 501(c)3 status. People shouldn't sell their right to free speech for a few tax writeoffs. I figure if people get hit for taxes at church as well, they'll likely be even more resistant to seeing them increased. It's also interesting that this happened over a sermon against the war, as opposed to something in support of it.

[Zealot]

Quote by: Matt W Nice to see you love your fellow Christians, Zealot....

Good Matt, you are beginning understand that Christians should not approve of supposed Christians who would feed their folks poison coolaid. Nor should we support men like Jimmy Baker who built a $10,000 dog house with church funds, right? When they get right, we'll gladly welcome them back into the fold, that's it bro. Love the guy, but hate his sin.

Zealot

[Zealot]

Quote by: PatrickHenry LOL! Yeah, where's the grace and mercy of the Lord, Z?

SMH
It's right there where the Lord put it Pat. Gosh you didn't know that, I'm surprised.
First you gotta open the door , confess, repent, be baptized and start the clean-up process, the rest you will gladly do out of thanksgiving. Your church teaches that you know.

Zealot

[SteveA]

I think many Christians have sold out to government and this is just another example of it coming to bite back. Wait until gay marriages come along and then we'll see how wise a decision it was to hand marriage over from a private social insitution to a government enforced one. How many people can imagine any of those who just fought for freedom from England in early America filing for 501(c)3 status?

I'm not a Christian proponent, but I think religions in general would be best served by remaining independent of government. Probably half the reasons I left and never went back to a church were because of the watered down hypocracy that's passed around second hand. Who defines marriage for Christians - individuals (and possibly whatever the Bible, God or a church say), or some people in D.C.? Who selects the material discussed within a congregation - the preach, or members, or the IRS?

Quote by: Zealot Christians should not approve of supposed Christians who would feed their folks poison coolaid.

Pro-war Christians have consumed enough coolaid already. It's good to see Christians aren't entirely state controlled yet. You can tell the churches that haven't sold out yet, because the IRS is on their back.

Wait until your own church gets hit and you guys are painted as a bunch of nuts in the media too. (Or are you going to tell me that's already happening?)

[SteveA]

I think you're a Church of England (America?) type Christian, Zealot.

http://www.history.org/almanack/life...eligionrev.cfm

"In the 18th century, Virginia authorities tolerated small numbers of dissenters from the Church of England who agreed to register with the courts and obtain required licenses. In the 1750s and '60s, evangelical Presbyterians and Baptists became less and less willing to be constrained by rules that advantaged the Church of England in the colony. They precipitated a struggle for religious freedom that challenged the centralized church establishment even before the Stamp Act Crisis gave evidence that changes were underway in the political arena. As Virginia approached a break with the Crown in the 1770s, dissenters' efforts to free themselves to practice their religion freely paralleled and often was reciprocal with political decisions that led to independence. Political independence, declared in 1776, was confirmed at war's end. Actions of Virginia legislators during that period crippled the Anglican church and brought some relief to non-Anglicans, but it was not until 1786 that the General Assembly guaranteed freedom of religion with the passage of Jefferson's famous Statute for Religious Freedom.

In the 25 years before events in 1776 forced Virginians to choose between revolution and loyalty to the king, the sermons of George Whitefield, Samuel Davies, and others during the series of religious revivals we know as the Great Awakening had already inspired many colonists to make decisions that upset the status quo. When they turned their backs on the Anglican establishment, evangelical dissenters not only challenged civil authority but questioned its legal partnership with a particular church (Church of England). Moreover, traditional social distinctions blurred as black and white, rich and poor, and free and slave worshiped at gatherings where they heard about a God who loved them all equally.

The goals of dissenters dovetailed with the aims of patriot leaders influenced by the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution. These men felt that no matter what God was, the human mind had been created free. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and others included the free exercise of religion among the natural rights they hoped to secure. Baptists and Presbyterians driven by evangelical fervor and a desire to practice their religion unmolested, together with political thinkers strongly influenced by their study of history, philosophy, science, and religion effected disestablishment of the church in Virginia (1786), a feat that perhaps neither group could have accomplished alone.

This partnership was as unlikely as it was unplanned. For instance, the Virginia Convention adopted the final draft of George Mason's Declaration of Rights in June 1776. Article sixteen stated, in part, that "all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." The document stopped short of actually disestablishing the church, but evangelicals took these words at face value. They bombarded the legislature with petitions listing their grievances and demanding relief. In response the General Assembly annually exempted "the different societies of Dissenters" from contributing to the support of the Anglican church beginning in the year 1776. A few years later, the assembly legalized marriages performed by dissenting ministers.

Thomas Jefferson introduced his bill for establishing religious freedom in 1779 in Williamsburg as part of a general revision of state laws. Too radical a step for legislators to take at that time, the bill languished during the war years. But dissenters did not forget, and their petition campaign continued. In the early 1780s Patrick Henry and others supported a halfway measure known as "general assessment," in which taxpayers would designate the minister or meetinghouse to which their tax monies would go. Dissenters in general regarded this proposal with suspicion, as did James Madison, whose famous "Memorial and Remonstrance" spoke for opponents of the measure. He reiterated that religion could never properly be a matter of law. Moreover, a government that could favor all Christian churches today, could with equal lawfulness revert to favoring a particular sect tomorrow. The measure failed. James Madison then resurrected Jefferson's bill and shepherded it through the legislature in 1786 while its author was United States minster to France.

The American Revolution itself was praised by some ministers from the pulpit as God's vehicle for bringing the people in America into the promised land. On the other hand, ministers loyal to the Crown continued to stress that the monarch remained God's principal representative on earth, and that he carried out this duty with the help of a select group of high-ranking individuals. Meanwhile, George Washington and other military leaders recognized the importance of religious counsel for their troops. A number of Anglican ministers became chaplains, and dissenters petitioned the assembly to be permitted to minister to American soldiers. "