US vows to stop illegal migrants

[dotcoma]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4402914.stm The US has vowed to stop every single illegal immigrant entering the country, by recruiting 1,000 extra agents and increasing the use of unmanned drones. "Our goal is to gain control of our borders," said Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. More than a million Mexicans are arrested every year as they try to enter the US to look for work. Experts said the migration trend would continue because of the huge wage gap between the US and Mexico. But Mr Chertoff insisted that once would-be immigrants learnt there was a high likelihood of being caught and sent home, the numbers trying to enter the US would fall. "I define control to mean that we will have an extremely high probability of detecting, responding to and interdicting illegal crossings of our borders," he said. Strained relations In August, the civilian group Minuteman Civil Defence Corps angered immigrant rights advocates by starting to conduct its own border patrols. Supporters of the Minuteman Project said they wanted to highlight what they saw as the federal government's failure to tackle the immigration issue.

Empty promises IMO. What do you think?

[Compugasm]

But I wonder why the title of the article is "The US has vowed to stop every single illegal immigrant.." and use "unmanned vehicals". Niether of these are attributed anywhere in the article.

I have a theory, that much of the news isn't really "written" by anyone, so much as it is generated from a database of facts and statements. For instance, starting with the bolded first sentance, the other 5 sentances are written out of order, and don't support the main topic. Also, in the "Strained Relations" topic, they could be re-arranged, and it wouldn't make any difference.

Quote by: dotcoma Empty promises IMO. What do you think?

I think they're just throwing out junk numbers just so it can be used said they're doing something. I've heard that 10000 more agents, a 2000mile double walled fence, electronic monitoring systems, etc... costing 9billion would significantly slow the influx. So, I don't think 1000 agents really makes much difference.

[Zeebadee]

This is garbage. Bush's idea of stopping illegals from entering the country is to change the laws so they're not illegal anymore. The migration will continue unabated.

[rmnunez]

I'm with compu, its impossible to guarantee not a single alien could sneak in, but maybe better control could be exercised over how and where they cross. Using the drones over Arizona would be a good idea as it would discourage crossings in these arid areas which are dangerous. My naswer is an easier and swifter visa process that contemplates a differentiated status for seasonal or temporary working Mexican non-immigrants. What previously would be "undocumenteds" would become seasonal or temporary non-immigrants for a negotiated fixed period. This would have to involve a periodic and much higher allocation of temporary residence and work permits for Mexicans. It is well-known substantial numbers of Mexicans, some calculate up to a million of them, cross into Mexico from the US regularly at least once a year. There are likely twice as many who don't try for fear of having to go through the border crossing ordeal again. The illegality of undocumented border crossings also fosters a whole criminal environment that supports smuggling of goods, people and probably involves drugs too. If the US simply seasonally alocated half a million temporary non-immigrant working permits for Mexicans, the undocumented problem would largely disappear. The US could condition the issuance of whatever number of such permits to the eventual repatriation of the beneficiaries.

The US is missing the boat here big time. Mexico just granted Mexicans the right to vote from the US, these are 20 to 25 million of the people who live in the US, they are almost 70% of the US' hispanics and will be about 25% of that country within 5 years. The Mexicans will eventually govern the US, they are rapidly climbing the social scale and increasingly found at the highest levels of government. The US cannot effectively remove all undocumented aliens and by shutting them out denying drivers licenses or public education for their children these people are alienated when the country ought to be trying to lure them into the social system there rather than leave that to the remote Mexican government.

[Compugasm]

The "1000 agent plan" sounds like an early retirement replacement force.

[Protostar]

Here's my plan. Build a huge wall along the Mexican border, sort of like the wall of China.
Crackdown on illegal immigrants by tagging them at the border the first time they try to cross. The next time they are to be shot on sight. There needs to be no mercy shown to these people. If other immigrants from Mexico and other countries can spend years of their life waiting for citizenship, so can they. What makes them so special? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez My naswer is an easier and swifter visa process that contemplates a differentiated status for seasonal or temporary working Mexican non-immigrants. What previously would be "undocumenteds" would become seasonal or temporary non-immigrants for a negotiated fixed period. This would have to involve a periodic and much higher allocation of temporary residence and work permits for Mexicans.

Like I said, just change the laws so they're not illegal anymore. It won't stop them from crossing, they'll just be legal now.

Quote by: rmnunez The US is missing the boat here big time. Mexico just granted Mexicans the right to vote from the US, these are 20 to 25 million of the people who live in the US, they are almost 70% of the US' hispanics and will be about 25% of that country within 5 years. The Mexicans will eventually govern the US, they are rapidly climbing the social scale and increasingly found at the highest levels of government.

So the answer is to let even more of them in? We're going to have to decide once and for all if a desire to maintain our own culture is a racist trait. We are expected to welcome all who come here, though they don't come to be Americans, they come to be Mexicans in America (or some other nationality), bringing their culture with them. As far as I can tell, there is no record of any "multi-cultural" society lasting any significant length of time. Is it fair to be expected to welcome and adapt to other cultures and yet not have the desire to maintain our own?

Quote by: rmnunez The US cannot effectively remove all undocumented aliens and by shutting them out denying drivers licenses or public education for their children these people are alienated when the country ought to be trying to lure them into the social system there rather than leave that to the remote Mexican government.

I think it's much more fair to expect the Mexican government to get rid of the corruption that generates the conditions that drive these people to come and do our laundry and gardening. Every Mexican migrant that comes north relieves their government of the social costs of providing for their own people, leaving more money to be raked off by their crooked politicians.

[Zealot]

[quote=rmnunez]I'm with compu, its impossible


!!!! Senor Nunez, the migrant worker I see standing on the street who works for his drugs, the pregnant latino teenager, the high latino jail population, the murderous Mexican citizen in Laredo, Mexico and the common latino gang banger who defaces all the walls, are not goimg to take over nothing but their owb blood bath.

A senor told me just what you said, "we are going to take over America", and I told him, "Good, I hope you do a better job than you did in Mexiao." When they bring the old Mexico with them, the Mexico they ran from, where will they run too next??

Where will they find another ready made country they can turn into another corrupt Mexico, huh Senor. Will you answer this one please?

Zealot

[Zealot]

Quote by: dotcoma Empty promises IMO. What do you think?

I'll believe it when I see it.

Zealot

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Protostar they are to be shot on sight

Protostar...(sigh)

[CoffeeSaint]

Wow, that's a lot of rage, people.
Look, I lived in San Diego (Escondido, specifically) for the last four years; I taught in the high schools there. I was maybe thirty miles form the Mexico-U.S. border. There were no Mexican gang wars in the town where I lived -- there were gang wars, and some of the combatants were of Mexican descent, but those young men were almost universally born in the U.S. More importantly, the other side of the fight was white supremmacists, skinheads, pick your term -- I'm going with honkies. Certainly not Mexican. The drug addicts that I saw were of every race, creed, color, etc. And the pregnant teenagers? Same thing.
Yes, there are a lot of Mexican people in the U.S., particularly close to the border. And the VAST majority of them work. Extremely hard. Doing jobs that Americans don't want to do. I know this is a cliched argument, but it isn't any less true: without Mexican migrant labor, the economy of Southern California, especially, but also of much of the Southwestern U.S., would fall apart.
We need Mexicans in this country. They work harder than I ever could -- harder than most of you have, I'll bet. For less wages, which they then spend to improve the lives of their families. I cannot for the life of me see what's wrong with people coming here to work.
Preserve our culture? What culture?
Build a wall and shoot people? What is the matter with you?
WHAT ARE WE PROTECTING?

[Cephus]

Quote by: Zeebadee This is garbage. Bush's idea of stopping illegals from entering the country is to change the laws so they're not illegal anymore. The migration will continue unabated.

It's yet more empty promises, just like the last amnesty plan which promised to impose heavy fines on employers of illegals, yet never did a damn thing. The Bush administration will never do anything to stem the tide of illegal immigration, he wants to guarantee cheap labor to his big business cronies.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: dotcoma Empty promises IMO. What do you think?

I think that some U.S. lawmakers have plenty of free-time.
U.S. needs immigrants with "less-legal" papers and that may sound very weird but those people take low-rate paid jobs (mostly).
They come to U.S. make some money, and go back and/or send that money to their origins, where money exchange ratio factor gives them and their families higher and better standards for living.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint And the VAST majority of them work. Extremely hard. Doing jobs that Americans don't want to do. I know this is a cliched argument, but it isn't any less true: without Mexican migrant labor, the economy of Southern California, especially, but also of much of the Southwestern U.S., would fall apart.

What you mean is they work at jobs that Americans don't want to do for $5 an hour with no benefits.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint We need Mexicans in this country. They work harder than I ever could -- harder than most of you have, I'll bet. For less wages, which they then spend to improve the lives of their families. I cannot for the life of me see what's wrong with people coming here to work. Preserve our culture? What culture? Build a wall and shoot people? What is the matter with you? WHAT ARE WE PROTECTING?

Yeah, right. What's the matter with me? You want to bring these people in so they can be exploited for their hard work at low wages, and you want to know what's the matter with me.
If you can't see what's wrong with allowing uncontrolled illegal immigration then you simply haven't looked. Here, try this for a start:http://www.house.gov/gallegly/col02-0305immigration.htm

I'm tired of having my hard-earned money taken in order to subsidize big growers that want to pay minimum wages to these people, then pass their social costs on to the taxpayer.

[rmnunez]

I wonder about this perception of a cultural clash,and most of all of this idea there is any sort of "culture" to preserve,protect or promote in the US.

Can anyone describe the traditional US costume; a top hat and coat tails a la Uncle Sam, cowboy in denim with chaps, OD fatigues with combat webgear, florid and colourful short sleeves with bermudas and white shoes? How about the traditional cuisine; hot dogs, pop-corn and peanut butter? They profess transplanted, and it seems fiscally-premised, religions, speak a transplanted and somewhat corrupted language and subscribe to also transplanted social or political notions. There is no US "culture", the finer people there favour European cultural expressions.

Then there's this idea the hispanics bring with them some sort of different cultural "baggage". This wouldn't be any alleged "gangsterism", some narcotics-premised social structure, any tendency to impregnate teenagers, indolence, low respect for the law or proclivity for menial jobs. These aren't cultural traits and under scrutiny are indistinguishable from prevailing practices among non-hispanics north of the border. I can find only 2 fundamental differences between hispanics and non-hispanics in the US and I've mentioned them before; greater anti-interventionism and more Catholicism.

Hispanics are generally law abidding and hard workers, they will often accept lower paid positions because whatever they are offered the pay is on average 6 times more than they get for the same job in Mexico. They are dutyfull parents who make tremendous sacrifices to maintain numerous dependants, reliable debtors who timely comply with financial obligations. In this they are not very different from other non-hispanics in the US. They are respectful of the law and more so because they are generally in some administratively irregular status in the US which could result in their deportation, or they mistakenly believe such could be the case. Generally they fear the presence of law enfocement because in their own countries the police and military tend to be abusive and repressive of people in the lower rungs of the economic scale.

People in the US might be put at ease if they could appreciate how similar hispanic and European cultures are. Both are generally mercantilist, value education, the family, justice, equity and social responsibility. Music, literature, plastic and scenic arts are very similar in hispanic and non-hispanic societies of the US. The anti-interventionist trait would seem a "positive" in many ways and can naturally be explained by this shared experience among so many hispanics in the US The Catholicism is somewhat nominal, but this doesn't translate into much except in isolated issues like abortion, the death penalty and humanitarian concerns.

[rmnunez]

Dance and Dense Denso, the third album by Molotov, Mexico’s most controversial band, has a title that translates as "dance and punch yourself." That same-named track not only kicks off the album but also neatly reflects the band’s punk-rock philosophy, which is musically hard-edged and lyrically sarcastic as hell. The album also features Molotov’s strongest material since their ’97 debut, ¿Dónde Jugáran las Niñas? "Here We Kum" is a head-banging yet danceable number that features a hilarious chorus: "Here we kum, and we don’t care mucho!" "E. Charles White" sounds like attendance being read in class, except the hyphenated surnames—which sound like they belong to make-believe Mexican aristocrats—are all sophisticated jokes that don’t make any sense unless you speak Mexico City slang. Fortunately, half the lyrics on the album’s best track, "Frijolero," are in English. Spanish for "beaner," "Frijolero" is a protest song in the same style as Sly Stone’s "Don’t Call Me Nigger, Whitey." With "Frijolero," Molotov pays homage to illegal immigrants and paints those who crusade against wetbacks as the ignorant racists they are. But that overtly political message is softened by Molotov’s sense of humor, which blossoms in the song’s tirade-filled chorus: "Don’t call me a gringo, you fuckin’ beaner/Stay on your side of that goddamn river," they sneer. Then they hit back with the only possible answer: "No me llames frijolero, pinche gringo puñetero. Chingado!!"—or "Don’t call me beaner, you fuckin’ gringo idiot. Fucker!"

Band/Artist: Molotov
Album: Dance and Dense denso
Song: Frijolero

Lyrics:

[CENTER]Yo ya estoy hasta la madre
de que me pongan sombrero
escucha entonces cuando digo
no me llames frijolero.

Y aunque exista algún respeto
y no metamos las narices
nunca inflamos la moneda
haciendo guerra a otros países.

Te pagamos con petróleo
e intereses nuestra deuda
mientras tanto no sabemos
quien se queda con la feria.

Aunque nos hagan la fama
de que somos vendedores
de la droga que sembramos
ustedes son consumidores.

Don't call me gringo,
You fuckin beaner
stay on your side
of that goddamn river
don't call me gringo,
You beaner.

No me digas beaner,
Mr. Puñetero
Te sacaré un susto
por racista y culero.
No me llames frijolero,
Pinche gringo puñetero.

Now I wish I had a dime
for every single time
I've gotten stared down
For being in the wrong side of town.

And a rich man I'd be
if I had that kind of chips
lately I wanna smack the mouths
of these racists.

Podrás imaginarte desde afuera,
ser un Mexicano cruzando la frontera,
pensando en tu familia mientras que pasas,
dejando todo lo que conoces atrás.

Si tuvieras tú que esquivar las balas
de unos cuantos gringos rancheros
Las seguirás diciendo good for nothing wetback?
si tuvieras tú que empezar de cero.
Now why don't you look down
to where your feet is planted

That U.S. soil that makes you take shit for granted
If not for Santa Ana, just to let you know
That where your feet are planted would be Mexico
Correcto!

(repeat italics)[/CENTER]

javascript:OpenPortalContentWin(168569, 400, 550, '168569_frijolero.swf', 'Frijolero(Beaner)', 0);

http://www.ocweekly.com/printme.php?eid=42964

[Zealot]

[quote=rmnunez]Band/Artist: Molotov

Will you answer the questions about your own country sir. You love to discuss the bad about America but you will not list the bad of your own, why? Are you being fair or dishonest? When you take over America is this what we can expect from you?
Is this what your people are running from? Mexicans tell me Mexico is mucho malo, is that true? Are you being honest? Please Senor, try!

Zealot

[rmnunez]

I can't comment on what is bad about all non-US America, but there are some problems in Mexico. The country is much poorer than the US, so generally they lack lots of features found north of the border (unemployment compensation, social security pensions and welfare benefits seem the most important). Law enforcement, military, education, medical services, roads, railways and airports are comparable to standards in the US and Canada.

The corruption and lack of transperancy present challenges, but neither is a uniquely "hispanic" feature and both diminish with economic growth and prosperity. Mexico is 10th or so in the OECD's hit parade, their universities and hospitals engage in sophisticated research using the latest technology, their accountants, engineers, surgeons and attorneys are as competent and virtuous in their disciplines as the finest available to the north.

That lousy government and corruption in Mexico spurs mass migration to the US is a false premise, the US draws migrants in huge numbers simply due to the unmet needs there for cheaper workers. No doubt if the Mexican government were clinically clean more money would reach all sorts of social programs and employment promoting efforts which could sop-up some migrants, but as long as they make several times over what they would get for the same job at home, they will migrate. If I offered you 6 times whatever you now make in the US if you came to work in Mexico, would you hesitate?

If wages paid to undocumenteds in the US fell by about 80%, there would be no more migration, but I suspect the US economy would feel the loss and it would be much more expensive to exclusively rely on citizens for the menial jobs. Otherwise the only alternative would be for Mexico to raise salaries by about 80% across the board and that would cause massive inflation.

[brien]

[quote=Protostar]Here's my plan. Build a huge wall along the Mexican border, sort of like the wall of China.


There is actually such a plan being proposed as we write. GWB has no intention of stemming the tide of illegals. He has had his terms in both the state of Texas and in DC to do something, anything, and he has, to borrow a term from an esteemed blogger here, done "diddlysquat." He is constipated, is what I think this means.

In typical Washingtonian fashion, the politicians will plug the hemmorage when the terrorists breach the border and attack Los Angeles in such a severe manner, that it will make 9/11 look like child's play. They're a bunch of reactionaires because if they weren't, they would have secured the border BEFORE 9/11. It is sad, scary and coming.

Have a pleasant weekend all. :)

[rmnunez]

There is no terrorist threat from Mexico, no terrorists massing here to attack Los Angeles. It makes as much sense to build an impenetrable wall separating Mexico as it does to do so with Canada and absent both (and an armoured dome to cover the country) no way to prevent a determined terrorist attack.