US vows to stop illegal migrants

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Zeebadee "The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term. During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent." http://www.cis.org/articles/1996/back296.htm

Obviously biased, and statistics have been twisted to fit their agenda. I need more than a newsrag to prove your case.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Son of Belial Obviously biased, and statistics have been twisted to fit their agenda. I need more than a newsrag to prove your case.

Ok, how about http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9357

[Compugasm]

Ah, thanks Zee. I also found answers to the last 4 pages of forum discussion with this article:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back605.html

I've been arguing that employers need to be whipped, and they do. However, it turns out government has said the employer is the one to find out who is illegal. Employers can't do this when the government documents can just be forged easily. Therefore, both gov't and business is simply turning a blind eye. Over time this is making the problem worse because as more and more arrive, they build family connections, and most of the work visas are issued thorough family connections.

[Son of Belial]

Both sources are obviously biased, and the first looked like a rag.

[Compugasm]

It seems to be that the increase in cost will be 1-3% depending on what fruit or vegetable your eating. So, just as I expected the cost of labor is negligable. That puts to rest the argument of out of control pricing, provided the market has time to adjust.

I guess what I will have to rethink my position on, is the argument legalizing, (guest worker, or Amnesty, etc..) across the board. Because that indicates a similar effect as rounding people up and ship them out en masse, within the same amnesty timeframe.

What is mentioned alot, is the "net effect" of illegal immigration. In that the goal is zero growth, which is possible though a number of ways, and not through one specific course of action.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: deedee That's what we hope....anyone who is economically astute and educated will see that this is a good thing for our purses here in America. Here is a portion of what we are writing to the president and the uneducated media:

Well, aren't you just so nice! Perhaps, though, you ought to educate yourself before taking on the "uneducated media".

Quote by: deedee There are currently an estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States today. Many of these undocumented immigrants have come from Mexico and other Latin American countries seeking work and better wages. Some of the undocumented immigrants have been here for decades. But, because they are working in the country ‘illegally’ they are easy targets for unscrupulous employers. These workers are needed to do the work most Americans wont do and it is in the business community’s best interest to have a guest worker program. This would give American business a steady supply of wiling low skilled workers which are becoming ever more scarce while our demand for it continues to rise.

"One of the most renowned agricultural economists in the world, Professor Philip Martin of the University of California at Davis, says that contrary to grower arguments, U.S. agribusiness has consistently experienced a labor oversupply. He does not see a shortage on the horizon." - Testimony of Richard M. Estrada
Commissioner, U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/uscir/120795.html

"No valid justification exists for a new agricultural guestworker program.
There is no actual or impending shortage of farm labor in the United States. We have not yet overcome the effects of granting immigration status to 1.1 million farmworkers under the 1986 immigration law. There is double-digit unemployment in many farm labor supply areas, including in Texas, Florida, and California. Washington State government reported that low wages in agriculture were partly due to a plentiful labor supply." - BRUCE GOLDSTEIN, co-executive director of the Farmworker Justice Fund, Inc., an advocacy group in Washington, D.C. for migrant and seasonal farmworkers http://judiciary.house.gov/legacy/6052.htm

Quote by: deedee While some may say this is the result of greedy American business what is lost in this argument is that in the end the ones who benefit are our nations economy with increased revenue and an increased GDP. This would give businesses more profits to expand and higher even more skilled employees, which require higher education. That would be to the benefit of the American employee. This is a win-win situation for American business and employees. This makes immigrants a net gain for our country despite the perceived drain on resources that come from having an increased population.

Are you kidding?? "Perceived drain"???
"Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

State's "cheap labor" costs average household $1,183 a year "
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm

So you think we should bring in more??

Then you must love this bill - "The AgJobs Amnesty program (S-1645, HR 3142) sponsored by Senator Larry Craig & Congressman Chris Cannon gave preferential treatment to applicants represented by attorneys. While pressure on 108th Congress was heavy for passage, the Salt Lake Tribune revealed that, after requiring applicants to use an attorney or designated entity for the application process, the AgJOBS amnesty then allowed the illegal alien access to public funds to pay the lawyers' fees." - http://www.theflipsideshow.com/Docum...ationScams.htm

[Compugasm]

Quote by: deedee ...in the end the ones who benefit are our nations economy with increased revenue and an increased GDP. This would give businesses more profits to expand and higher even more skilled employees, which require higher education. That would be to the benefit of the American employee.

As long as the "net effect" of illegal immigration is zero. The realistic goal says there is a yearly increase of 400k and the GDP is offset by the social cost (you'll have to refer to the sources above for specifics cause it won't fit here).

If people are cheaper than the machines, then all you need is more people to pick, and not "higher educated" involved with said machinery. With the profits, expand they will, with an almost limitless supply of willing laborers and government policies ensuring the constant influx of cheap labor to keep the cost down. This is what rmnunez was talking about back on page 2 of this thread.

[Compugasm]

I think I have a good understanding of what's happening. It's like a recycle diagram, with government, immigration, and employers, as the points of a triangle.

* Government - Has basically two types of visa, temporary and residence. 2/3rds of the visas issued are residence related. They're given through some kind of family root.
* Employers - Has the onus of determining employment eligability, however the documents for this are easily forgeable. Also, the undocumented status is a kind of "win-win" between employee/employer.
* Immigrants - No matter what they're status, they established family connections, and further enhance a network for others.

I see how this recycle diagram becomes a complicated 3D model once you toss in RICO at employers, or Patriot Act at individuals. Um, blah. I'm seriously doubting the upward trend could be balanced.

[CoffeeSaint]

I hereby withdraw my arguments against the necessity of cheap foreign farm labor in the U.S. I am a victim of propaganda, and a dumbass.

I do still think that a lot of the rage should be reduced; there is certainly a reason to try to close the border, but shooting people who just want to work -- or even people who want to move here and leech off of our society -- is going too far. If we start killing the annoying people, where do we stop?


Man, I hate it when I'm wrong.

[Cephus]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Incorrect. If Americans were willing to do these jobs, they would be done by Americans, unless you are implying that we are at full employment or that you are implying that no job is better then a lousy job.

As a matter of fact, Americans *ARE* doing those jobs, it's just that the employers want to pay less than most Americans are willing to take, often much less than minimum wage. If all the illegal aliens were forced out of the country, all of these jobs wouldn't be left undone, they would be filled by legal citizens and the rates would be set, as with all other jobs, at the going rate.

The reason that illegals are hired is because they work cheap and can't complain about working conditions because they're not here legally to begin with. Use a little common sense, will you?

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Cephus As a matter of fact, Americans *ARE* doing those jobs, it's just that the employers want to pay less than most Americans are willing to take, often much less than minimum wage. If all the illegal aliens were forced out of the country, all of these jobs wouldn't be left undone, they would be filled by legal citizens and the rates would be set, as with all other jobs, at the going rate. The reason that illegals are hired is because they work cheap and can't complain about working conditions because they're not here legally to begin with. Use a little common sense, will you?

I think this has all been established, but thanks.

[rmnunez]

The impact of an exclusively US citizen or lawful foreign resident workforce on labour prices is difficult to estimate. I would expect it would make wages rise since we already know the undocumenteds are paid less. To figure out how much more a head of lettuce might cost one would need to know what proportion of that product's cost is due to labour (a substantial proportion I think). One would then need to figure out what proportion of the laborers harvesting lettuce are underpaid undocumenteds (a substantial proportion too). The rate of inflation (basis for lots of government expenditure tabulations) is calculated based on price increases in specific household purchases with a number of basic farm products included in those purchases. Since things like flour, milk, eggs and potatoes (farm products) are important in household purchases concern over inflationary impacts would be higher with an all-citizen and lawful resident agricultural sector.

Another thing to consider is the non-agricultural work of undocumenteds. All sorts of menial jobs like mopping floors, short order cooks, car parking attendants and movie ticket-takers, are performed by the undocumented. Basically anything where experience and its accreditation are unimportant is done frequently by people who can't prove they know how and these are usually the undocumented. What would be the added cost of an all-citizen or lawful resident workforce for MacDonalds, Wal Mart, the janitorial crews everywhere and all those fry-cooks too?

[Zeebadee]

What you're really worried about is what would happen if the Mexicans had to pay for their own social services, and what would their economy do without all that money that's sent to them from the U.S.

[CoffeeSaint]

Even without the assaultive comments, I think the argument could be made that a smaller work force could do the jobs more efficiently, and earn commensurately higher wages; this point has been made with the comparison of McDonald's employees and those of In'n'Out Burger. In and Out has fewer employees, who make far more per hour, and yet the restaurant actually has much higher standards of service -- without higher prices. So would the price of lettuce skyrocket? I'm not sure any more . . .
And maybe I'm willing to give those jobs to Americans, and find out. Are both our countries really SERVED by this? Or is it only convenient for now?

[Compugasm]

The price increase is 1-3%, but Zeebadee provided a link to prices a few pages back. You'd need to read that long article to understand why. In summary, along the path from seedling, to your table, labor is a only a percentage of cost in lots of steps.

[Logjam]

Quote by: Protostar Here's my plan. Build a huge wall along the Mexican border, sort of like the wall of China. Crackdown on illegal immigrants by tagging them at the border the first time they try to cross. The next time they are to be shot on sight. There needs to be no mercy shown to these people. If other immigrants from Mexico and other countries can spend years of their life waiting for citizenship, so can they. What makes them so special? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Along the border south of San Diego they have built a wall. It's a double wall, they planned to build a triple wall but two worked fine. Between the two wall is enough room for guards to patrol. The wall has stopped all illegal crossings. It's be quite a undertaking to build a wall along the entire border, but probably not as much as a moon shot.

The double wall keeps illegal immigrants out, trouble is the rest of the World can't wait for us to build it so they can throw rocks at us......The French, however; might build one of their own.

[rmnunez]

I am concerned over the impact paying for their own social services would have on Mexicans, not as much for the Mexicans working in the US (who on average earn 6 times more there than doing the same job at home). The Mexican fiscal base is weak, only large corporartions with hundreds of employees pay income taxes (about 20% of those who should). Most social spending in Mexico has been financed until now with oil revenue and there is little custom of tax paying. They are working on this, trying to get people to think like they do in the US; that its their taxes which pay for these corrupt functionaries and the services they provide.

What troubles me is the likely scenarios when we consider the demographics and needs. Presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (AMLO) promotes a more socially conscious government policy towards the needy, his campaign motto (for the Mexico City mayoralty) was "Por el bien de todos, los pobres primero" (for our own good, first the poor). AMLO assigned $709 pesos a month each (only about $65 US) for the elderly (over 70). Doing this on a nationwide scale is estimated to exhaust the national treasure within 3 years. Politicians do grasp that they need to improve tax collections but we know this isn't something very popular.

Caring for the poor or the elderly is just a small slice of a government's social responsibilities, they've got to provide public education, access for the handicapped, protections against gender abuse and discrimination, milk for pregnant teenagers, rehab for drug addicts, more cops and prisons... These should be paid for with taxes and the services provided equitably distributed, but the needs are great (60% of the population lives in dwellings without paved floors, running water or electricity). They could jack up the taxes on the 20% who are trapped into paying by their employer's responsibility, but they are trying to increase the revenue pool and improve on enforcement (mostly through 'responsibility' PSA's and campaigns).

I'm sure lots of Mexican undocumenteds end up in the US because they can't find jobs at home, but am not sure what proportion of them go because they get better medical care, schooling for their kids or unemployment benefits in the US.

[MarsBarKid]

Quote by: dotcoma Empty promises IMO. What do you think?

I am an Aussie and we have less boat people coming in since we starting locking them up in Detention Centres. Many had no papers but had flown commerical flights to Indonesia got a boat people trafficer to Oz and destroyed their passports.

I think the Minute Men are doing a stirling job - good on em.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Compugasm The price increase is 1-3%, but Zeebadee provided a link to prices a few pages back. You'd need to read that long article to understand why. In summary, along the path from seedling, to your table, labor is a only a percentage of cost in lots of steps.

They did the research on a local radio show here and estimated that a head of lettuce, even if you were paying pretty decent wages to legal residents, would go up a few pennies at best. Labor is not a big part of the cost to bring it to market. The idea that illegals are necessary or the whole industry goes under is ludicrous.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Cephus Labor is not a big part of the cost to bring it to market. The idea that illegals are necessary or the whole industry goes under is ludicrous.

The deal with food is this: If the price rises are too steep, people will start growing it in their yards...

Apples too high at Safeway? I'll buy 'em from the little kid with a wagon, selling them door to door...