US vows to stop illegal migrants

[Cephus]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint We need Mexicans in this country. They work harder than I ever could -- harder than most of you have, I'll bet. For less wages, which they then spend to improve the lives of their families. I cannot for the life of me see what's wrong with people coming here to work. Preserve our culture? What culture? Build a wall and shoot people? What is the matter with you? WHAT ARE WE PROTECTING?

The fact you seem to be missing is that they are here ILLEGALLY! They are BREAKING THE LAW! What's wrong with people coming here to work? Nothing, so long as they follow established legal channels to do so. Running across the border in the middle of the night is not an established legal channel.

Funny thing, Mexico has sealed their southern border against illegal aliens from South America trying to enter, yet encourage their poor to move north to the US and send money back. Can anyone say hypocracy? I knew you could.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: brien when the terrorists breach the border and attack Los Angeles in such a severe manner, that it will make 9/11 look like child's play.

Rampant, completely unsupported conjecture stemming from the new idiotic paranoia that Americans have.

They're a bunch of reactionaires because if they weren't, they would have secured the border BEFORE 9/11.

Are you sure you don't work for the Bush white house? Why don't you just say Saddam Hussein flew the planes on 9/11....
The 9/11 hijackers entered the country LEGALLY and so therefore your statement is completly without thought or merit.

It is sad, scary and coming.

Show me any evidence whatsoever of this.

Quote by: Zeebadee You want to bring these people in so they can be exploited for their hard work at low wages

Where is the exploitation? Mexicans want so badly to work for those low wages they risk life and family to come here... I would say that's a pretty strong indicator that what you have is an employment contract between a willing employer and a willing employee and I don't see the problem with it. People should be allowed to work for whatever wage they desire and the market will pay. It's called capitalism.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Preserve our culture? What culture? Build a wall and shoot people? What is the matter with you? WHAT ARE WE PROTECTING?

Who knows? Frankly, it is the elitest notion that people should have to "apply" to see if they're "good enough" to come here that causes most of the world to hate us.

Newsflash: Your ancestors, no matter who you are, immigrated to this country. Most likely it was illegally or in the grey area between totally legal and illegal. Get over it.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Cephus The fact you seem to be missing is that they are here ILLEGALLY! They are BREAKING THE LAW! What's wrong with people coming here to work? Nothing, so long as they follow established legal channels to do so. Running across the border in the middle of the night is not an established legal channel.

Ahh yes, circular logic, the true bastion of people with no reasonable argument... "Illegal" immigration is illegal because it's wrong, and it is wrong because it's against the law (illegal)...

"Illegal" immigration is a malum prohibitum crime, fabricated by "countries" protecting their "borders" which are themselves fabricated.

This is the fact that YOU are missing... "Illegal" immigration is like making a law that says it's a crime to do jumping jacks, and then arresting anyone who does. It's not illegal because it's wrong, it's illegal because the law says it is, which as any good defender of personal liberties knows, is a stupid reason to say something is wrong.

Funny thing, Mexico has sealed their southern border against illegal aliens from South America trying to enter, yet encourage their poor to move north to the US and send money back. Can anyone say hypocracy? I knew you could.

Oh, you mean like the hypocracy of condemning, chastising, or even invading a country because they might have weapons of mass destruction, while all the while having enough nukes ourselves to kill everyone on Earth 25 times? Mexico does not corner the market on governmental hypocracy by a long shot, and anyone who implies that they do is a moron.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Where is the exploitation? Mexicans want so badly to work for those low wages they risk life and family to come here... I would say that's a pretty strong indicator that what you have is an employment contract between a willing employer and a willing employee and I don't see the problem with it. People should be allowed to work for whatever wage they desire and the market will pay. It's called capitalism.

The problem is that they aren't being paid livable wages. They put their kids in public schools, they avail themselves of food stamps and every other social welfare program they can qualify for, they have no drivers licenses yet drive without insurance, they have no medical insurance so they use the emergency rooms as a primary medical care resource. The employers love the system, they pay minimum wages and the taxpayers pick up all of the social program costs. The employees themselves love the system, they get out of that shithole of a country that cheats the common man out of everything they own and pays them nothing and they come here where the U.S. taxpayer provides all the basic necessities of life totally free. The Mexican government loves the system because the money saved by not having to provide those same basic services to their own people can now be siphoned off by the corrupt politicians that run that cesspool down there. Why would the Mexican government pay welfare costs for Mexicans that can't get jobs when they can have the U.S. taxpayer pick up that tab? Capitalism?? That's ludicrous! The U.S. taxpayers are directly subsidizing all who employ these people.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: tivodan1116 I would say that's a pretty strong indicator that what you have is an employment contract between a willing employer and a willing employee and I don't see the problem with it. People should be allowed to work for whatever wage they desire and the market will pay. It's called capitalism.

To expand this argument: Automatically make everyone a citizen, and since they're citizens, they have equal protections and obligations which is the key. They must be part of "the system" which is supporting them. "Tagged and Tracked" exactly like the rest of us are.

Earlier someone said "what are we protecting" and that is: our way of life. This goal can be agreed on by both sides of the argument. But ultimately, neither solution will garuntee protection. The great wall sounds like a good idea at first, but after the 20+yrs it takes to make this wall, will ultimately be a boondoggle of maintenance, over-expenditure, and obsolesence. Yes, less immigrants will get in, but will not stop every single person from tunneling, flying, smuggling, swimming, or catapulting themselves over the border. It doesn't rectify the problems of illegals on society.

If you consider again the question "What are we protecting", what seems more plausible, changing policy, or building a wall of swiss cheese? The worst case senario is having both a wall, and a guest worker program. The result of bans, seems to be higher prices and more taxes for everyone!

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Ahh yes, circular logic, the true bastion of people with no reasonable argument... "Illegal" immigration is illegal because it's wrong, and it is wrong because it's against the law (illegal)... "Illegal" immigration is a malum prohibitum crime, fabricated by "countries" protecting their "borders" which are themselves fabricated. This is the fact that YOU are missing... "Illegal" immigration is like making a law that says it's a crime to do jumping jacks, and then arresting anyone who does. It's not illegal because it's wrong, it's illegal because the law says it is, which as any good defender of personal liberties knows, is a stupid reason to say something is wrong. Oh, you mean like the hypocracy of condemning, chastising, or even invading a country because they might have weapons of mass destruction, while all the while having enough nukes ourselves to kill everyone on Earth 25 times? Mexico does not corner the market on governmental hypocracy by a long shot, and anyone who implies that they do is a moron.

Hear, hear. And let me say that again: hear, hear.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Compugasm To expand this argument: Automatically make everyone a citizen, and since they're citizens, they have equal protections and obligations which is the key. They must be part of "the system" which is supporting them. "Tagged and Tracked" exactly like the rest of us are. Earlier someone said "what are we protecting" and that is: our way of life. This goal can be agreed on by both sides of the argument. But ultimately, neither solution will garuntee protection. The great wall sounds like a good idea at first, but after the 20+yrs it takes to make this wall, will ultimately be a boondoggle of maintenance, over-expenditure, and obsolesence. Yes, less immigrants will get in, but will not stop every single person from tunneling, flying, smuggling, swimming, or catapulting themselves over the border. It doesn't rectify the problems of illegals on society. If you consider again the question "What are we protecting", what seems more plausible, changing policy, or building a wall of swiss cheese? The worst case senario is having both a wall, and a guest worker program. The result of bans, seems to be higher prices and more taxes for everyone!

I was the one who asked what we are protecting, and it hasn't been answered yet -- other than the brilliant and eloquent RMNunez, and I don't think the rest of you are agreeing with him. Thank you, sir, for your cogent and melodic writing.

What are we protecting? Just say it: you're afraid that Soiuthern California will become only Spanish-speaking. You're afraid that the border states will boast only black hair, brown eyes, and dark white skin. You're afraid that local radio stations will no longer play Skynyrd and Bon Jovi, or N'Sync, or whatever, and will only play Los Tigres del Norte.

Go to San Diego (Funny, how Spanish that name sounds, ain't it?) It's already happened, as much as it's going to happen. Most people there speak a little bit of Spanglish. Most people know some Mexican bands, and hear some Mexican music. Everybody can name at least five good burrito joints -- and I'm NOT talking about Taco Bell. The culture at the border is just that: border culture. A mix of both countries, of both languages, of both peoples. It's stronger because of it. I wish we had some of that here in the Pacific Northwest, and I absolutely support an open border policy in terms of realistic numbers of work visas, with genuine regulation. If there were enough work permits to meet the demand from both sides, the problems with illegal immigration -- all of those named by RM -- would, as he said, drop to nothing.

Go back and read his posts. I'm from this side of the border, since that obviously matters to you rednecks, and I agree, wholeheartedly, with everything he said.

[Jack]

Having been born and raised in San Diego, and once again living here, I'm very comfortable with the Mexican culture. I can't say I agree with all of it; it's deeply Catholic and the music is perhaps my least favorite, though I do love Spanish guitars. But they are the true natives of this area. We took the land from Mexico, and now we refuse to share it with them.
It's hard for me to dislike anyone who is willing to risk their life to cross the desert East of here just to take a crummy job at a lousy wage and have to put up with all the crap us white folk throw their way. Perhaps their industriousness and willingness to work hard shames us more than we want to admit.

[Son of Belial]

I love how they tear up the farmland at the border and bring in disease and filth. I also live how hiring illegal aliens causes pay to go down. Yay for illegals! It's not like all I can find in my area is minimum wage jobs because of the vast numbers of illegal aliens. Why should that bother me any? Anyone can survive on $6.15 right? I'm just a redneck I suppose.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint You're afraid that the border states will boast only black hair, brown eyes, and dark white skin.

You talking to me? I'm I'm agreeing with RM. I think "wall of swiss cheese" has caused confusion. It's stated to mean there will be ever creative ways to circumvent any means that could be constructed. And, anyone wishing to truly harm you, will do it no matter what barriers, or policy, there is to prevent it.

Quote by: Son of Belial I also live how hiring illegal aliens causes pay to go down.

We're not disputing this. What perspective are you taking? Keep everyone out, or let them come in?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I was the one who asked what we are protecting, and it hasn't been answered yet --

Then you aren't reading all the posts.

[Son of Belial]

Quote by: Compugasm We're not disputing this. What perspective are you taking? Keep everyone out, or let them come in?

If they want in, they come in legally and learn our language. If they can't pass a test to speak English on at least a 3rd grade level, they're denied entrance. Anyone crossing the border illegally should be shot on sight. That's my perspective.

[Compugasm]

Oh sure, Mexico is going to set up testing facilities to determine if people can leave the country? Or, do people voluntarily submit to the test in the US, providing they make it through your hail of bullets?

And where does this testing stop? Should the French take the test too? How about the English, they look just like the French and it's possible French might sneak across the channel to England, or fly to Canada. Canadians should prove their ability to speak 3rd grade English, because some of them speak only French. Have you seen the Canadian side of Niagra Falls, it's very neat and tidy. Are Canadians exempt because they don't bring dirt and filth? Silly generalities.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Son of Belial If they want in, they come in legally and learn our language. If they can't pass a test to speak English on at least a 3rd grade level, they're denied entrance.

Then you would have denied entrance to the vast majority of immigrants, legal and otherwise, over the past two centuries. Including your own ancestors. Good plan.

Anyone crossing the border illegally should be shot on sight. That's my perspective.

Ahh yes, here comes the tough talk. By spouting off asinine rhetoric like this you look like nothing more then the idiot American --- shoot first, ask questions later. Where'd you get that "perspective", your visit to the Alamo?

I love how they ... bring in disease and filth.

Provide concrete evidence of this utterly baseless notion that "illegal" immigrants are bringing in any more disease, per capita, then poverty-striken "legal" Americans.

I also live how hiring illegal aliens causes pay to go down. Yay for illegals! It's not like all I can find in my area is minimum wage jobs because of the vast numbers of illegal aliens.

I'm confused. You say that hiring "illegal" aliens causes pay to go down? How? How does hiring "illegal" aliens for low paying jobs cause pay for other jobs to go down?? All you can find are minimum wage jobs? Are you saying that "illegal" immigrants are taking the high paying jobs then?? You can't have it both ways.

I'm just a redneck I suppose.

You said it.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Zeebadee Then you aren't reading all the posts.

You're right! Sorry. Let me address your points specifically, then. There was this:

So the answer is to let even more of them in? We're going to have to decide once and for all if a desire to maintain our own culture is a racist trait. We are expected to welcome all who come here, though they don't come to be Americans, they come to be Mexicans in America (or some other nationality), bringing their culture with them. As far as I can tell, there is no record of any "multi-cultural" society lasting any significant length of time. Is it fair to be expected to welcome and adapt to other cultures and yet not have the desire to maintain our own?

Is wishing to maintain your own culture a racist trait? Not at all. Is believing the very presence of another culture is a threat to your own a racist trait? You betcha! We ARE expected to welcome all who come here to become Americans; I agree that not all do come to become Americans, and the majority of migrant laborers would agree as well: they want, as RM said, money. What I'm talking about is opening the border to those who want to work in the U.S., WITH regulation of whatever kind we deem necessary -- I would think work permits, with some kind of background/criminal record check, along with some "migrant laborer" driver's license for transportation and identification within the U.S., but this is all beside the point. They DON'T come here to be "Mexicans in America," they come for money. If the money was in Honduras and Nicaragua, they wouldn't come here. Period. Coming from capitalists, criticism of people trying to make money is pretty damned hypocritical -- especially when it is coupled with rhetoric about saving our culture. Our culture IS money.

There is no "multi-cultural" culture that lasts? Really? Prove it. Or at least, give me one example. One example that is not a colonized nation. One example where one culture was not conquered, enslaved, subjugated, or slaughtered wholesale by a dominant culture. I'll give you one for argument's sake: the U.S. I don't think it is the melting pot, or the Rainbow Coalition it has been purported to be, but it is certainly inclusive of more than one culture, and yet there are cultural artifacts that remain, basically unchanged. The Catholic Mass, for one -- certainly not an "American" invention. Many Asian cultures still retain their cultural views of family, even after several generations, in some cases -- this is why there are still Chinatowns, though most of the "Little Italys" and such are now tourist traps, rather than immigrant centers.

Then there was this:

The problem is that they aren't being paid livable wages. They put their kids in public schools, they avail themselves of food stamps and every other social welfare program they can qualify for, they have no drivers licenses yet drive without insurance, they have no medical insurance so they use the emergency rooms as a primary medical care resource. The employers love the system, they pay minimum wages and the taxpayers pick up all of the social program costs. The employees themselves love the system, they get out of that shithole of a country that cheats the common man out of everything they own and pays them nothing and they come here where the U.S. taxpayer provides all the basic necessities of life totally free. The Mexican government loves the system because the money saved by not having to provide those same basic services to their own people can now be siphoned off by the corrupt politicians that run that cesspool down there. Why would the Mexican government pay welfare costs for Mexicans that can't get jobs when they can have the U.S. taxpayer pick up that tab? Capitalism?? That's ludicrous! The U.S. taxpayers are directly subsidizing all who employ these people.

Oh, wait, sorry. That wasn't about culture at all. Unless you include this rant of yours against the Mexican migrant stealing all of our welfare money and clogging up our schools and hospitals. Is that what you're suggesting we "defend" from a Mexican invasion? I would like you to count, please: how many illegal immigrants -- and I'll even accept that term to mean Mexican migrants, though it doesn't mean that, because I know that's what you want to say -- actually commit crimes in the U.S.? How many illegal immigrant children are in public schools? How many illegal immigrant families use food stamps? Get welfare? Use ER's as their primary medical resource? Drive without insurance?

Got that number? Great. Now:
Count how many Americans do those same things.

Who's costing us more?

[Compugasm]

Quote by: tivodan1116 I'm confused. You say that hiring "illegal" aliens causes pay to go down? How?

Employers not held accountable to who is actually working for them. It can be easily said "I've got no records of this person working here, and therefore not responsible for any costs relating to their employment". Workers don't speak up, because as pointed out they make 5x more here, and identifying yourself as illegal is a sure way to find yourself on a bus to Mexico.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Son of Belial If they want in, they come in legally and learn our language. If they can't pass a test to speak English on at least a 3rd grade level, they're denied entrance. Anyone crossing the border illegally should be shot on sight. That's my perspective.

As you said on another thread to me, SOB: I've enjoyed your posts immensely, and I have to bow to you for your masterful PWN1NG of fools here, but I gotta take issue with you here.
You and I are talking about two different things. The number of immigrants who come here to live, to settle permanently, is MUCH smaller than is made out in the media -- by orders of magnitude, I think. Those people are a drain on nothing; they are much closer, as I think tivodan said, to the immigrant ancestors of everybody in this country: hard working people that support this country, often more fervently than its "native sons." Think of the Japanese-American unit in WWII, the one that won more decorations/honors than any other unit? That's what we're talking about.
On the other hand, we have the migrants: those people only commit crimes because they are persecuted. They drive illegally because we won't allow them to follow our laws and become legal drivers; if we offered them a chance to take a test, pay for driving privileges, and pay for insurance, they would do it in a heartbeat. Less. But what do they get if they try to follow our driving laws, in terms of licensure? Jail time, and deportation. Would you get a license? They only live in "filth" -- filth put on them by our countrymen, not brought with them. Go look at a migrant laborer camp, one organized and "monitored" by the employer, and ask whose fault the filth is. Any disease that spreads through the camps does so for the same reason: migrant farm workers are not allowed to drive themselves to work, the fields are too far away from any town to live in a real dwelling and walk to work, and the farmers won't pay for buses. Anywhere those statements don't fit, there is no filth; there is no disease. Not that I have seen, at least.

As for the issue of speaking/reading/writing English at a third grade level, if we don't expect our own President to live up to that standard, why should the migrants have to?

[Chris the Chees]

The great irony of the whole situation is that the very people demanding an end to immigration are the benofactors of migration, in most cases of just a few generations previously.

[Son of Belial]

Since you were one of the only ones to reply without personal attacks, I'll reply to you.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint As you said on another thread to me, SOB: I've enjoyed your posts immensely, and I have to bow to you for your masterful PWN1NG of fools here, but I gotta take issue with you here.

Not a problem.

You and I are talking about two different things. The number of immigrants who come here to live, to settle permanently, is MUCH smaller than is made out in the media -- by orders of magnitude, I think. Those people are a drain on nothing; they are much closer, as I think tivodan said, to the immigrant ancestors of everybody in this country: hard working people that support this country, often more fervently than its "native sons." Think of the Japanese-American unit in WWII, the one that won more decorations/honors than any other unit? That's what we're talking about.

I specifically said illegal aliens. If you want to live in a country, you come in legally. If you are seen crossing the border to Canada illegally, they WILL shoot you. Have you read reports of the farmers in Texas having their farmlands torn apart by illegals? They steal and damage crops, destroy the area, kill cattle, etc. Do you think that's right?

Leprosy, TB and other disease rates are exploding thanks to the influx of illegal aliens. The average illegal alien will spread TB to more than 10 US citizens. And guess where they tend to work? In restaurants across the country preparing your food.

http://www.tblog.com/templates/index...&static=469146
http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2002/s...srsept02.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=43384
http://www.rense.com/general19/TBAL.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1098224/posts
http://www.cis.org/articles/2003/back1103.html

As for the issue of speaking/reading/writing English at a third grade level, if we don't expect our own President to live up to that standard, why should the migrants have to?

The president certainly speaks at at least a 3rd grade level. I'd say he's at least as eloquent a speaker as an average middle schooler. But that's neither here nor there. There is no reason for me to have to learn the language of immigrants for their convenience.

My wife used to live in San Antonio and lived with an Hispanic. I say Hispanic because he was born in the US and spoke English, though his parents were Mexican. Anyway, she learned a lot of Spanish from him. They were in a grocery store, and these two Mexicans in front of them were buying groceries with an Independence card(welfare, food stamps basically). While they were buying groceries with my tax money, they were saying in Spanish how much they hate America, how bad it sucks, how evil it is, etc.

Let me get this straight. You're getting money to buy food from this government for free, taken from the pockets of working Americans, while simultaneously saying you hate this country? Even worse, you're saying it in Spanish right in the line.

Then there are all these immigrants who refuse to learn English. Not that they just haven't learned it yet... I can understand them making the attempt... but we've actually known people that REFUSE to learn English. They turn their noses up at it. They act indignant when someone mentions speaking English. This is an English speaking country, prick. What pisses me off worse is the Americans that defend this shit, like it's our duty to learn Spanish for THEIR convenience. English speaking Americans saying this bullshit.


I'm concerned with fixing a problem. I'm NOT concerned with being politically correct. If anyone wants to call me a redneck, a racist, or "intolerant," please, be my guest. If and when things really go down the tubes, you can hold your head up high knowing that at least when you were letting this happen, you didn't get called any bad names.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Oh, wait, sorry. That wasn't about culture at all. Unless you include this rant of yours against the Mexican migrant stealing all of our welfare money and clogging up our schools and hospitals. Is that what you're suggesting we "defend" from a Mexican invasion? I would like you to count, please: how many illegal immigrants -- and I'll even accept that term to mean Mexican migrants, though it doesn't mean that, because I know that's what you want to say -- actually commit crimes in the U.S.? How many illegal immigrant children are in public schools? How many illegal immigrant families use food stamps? Get welfare? Use ER's as their primary medical resource? Drive without insurance? Got that number? Great. Now: Count how many Americans do those same things. Who's costing us more?

Oh, ok. I get it now. Since Americans use those social services the U.S. taxpayer shouldn't mind if anyone else wants to use them also. I guess we should just pay for whomever wants to come here, no questions asked. Maybe we could just provide those services without them even having to come to this country and save us all some trouble. Why should we inconvenience them by making them come here to collect our money??