Cia = Kgb?

[SteveA]

I remember during the cold war all of the accusations we threw at Russia and the KGB. The KGB would capture someone and hold them secretively captive, and possibly torture people without any public knowledge.

Here's an article that's saying we have similar actions happening in the U.S. now. Bush recently wanted to allow the CIA to torture people. Does he know something we don't?

CIA holds terror suspects in secret prisons
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9890829/ (full article)

"The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism. It depends on the cooperation of foreign intelligence services, and on keeping even basic information about the system secret from the public, foreign officials and nearly all members of Congress charged with overseeing the CIA's covert actions.

The existence and locations of the facilities -- referred to as "black sites" in classified White House, CIA, Justice Department and congressional documents -- are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country.

The CIA and the White House, citing national security concerns and the value of the program, have dissuaded Congress from demanding that the agency answer questions in open testimony about the conditions under which captives are held. Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.

While the Defense Department has produced volumes of public reports and testimony about its detention practices and rules after the abuse scandals at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at Guantanamo Bay, the CIA has not even acknowledged the existence of its black sites. To do so, say officials familiar with the program, could open the U.S. government to legal challenges, particularly in foreign courts, and increase the risk of political condemnation at home and abroad.

Growing concerns
But the revelations of widespread prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq by the U.S. military -- which operates under published rules and transparent oversight of Congress -- have increased concern among lawmakers, foreign governments and human rights groups about the opaque CIA system. Those concerns escalated last month, when Vice President Cheney and CIA Director Porter J. Goss asked Congress to exempt CIA employees from legislation already endorsed by 90 senators that would bar cruel and degrading treatment of any prisoner in U.S. custody.

Although the CIA will not acknowledge details of its system, intelligence officials defend the agency's approach, arguing that the successful defense of the country requires that the agency be empowered to hold and interrogate suspected terrorists for as long as necessary and without restrictions imposed by the U.S. legal system or even by the military tribunals established for prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

The Washington Post is not publishing the names of the Eastern European countries involved in the covert program, at the request of senior U.S. officials. They argued that the disclosure might disrupt counterterrorism efforts in those countries and elsewhere and could make them targets of possible terrorist retaliation.

The secret detention system was conceived in the chaotic and anxious first months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the working assumption was that a second strike was imminent.

..."

The link has the entire article.

[RickSp]

I find it revolting that those who wrap themselves in the flag and blather on about freedom then turn around and support torture. We will not be protected from terrorism by becoming terrorists ourselves.

When the Senate ratified the Geneva Convention and the Convention against Torture they become part of US law. The Bush administration is therefore not only violating international law but US law as well. Libby is not the only one who deserves jail time.

[grandpa]

Quote by: RickSp I find it revolting that those who wrap themselves in the flag and blather on about freedom then turn around and support torture. We will not be protected from terrorism by becoming terrorists ourselves.

"It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more
doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage, than the creation of
a new system. For the initiator has the emnity of all who would profit
by the preservation of the old institutions and merely lukewarm defenders
in those who would gain by the new ones. "
-- Niccolo Machiavelli, 1513

That we can create a wonderous future by dropping bombs all over the place is one of many false hopes.

Grandpa h.

[phoenix_fire]

Between this, the Patriot Act, the so-called "Politics of Fear", etc. I am very worried at the precedents being set. What they are doing is cruel, unconstitutional, and fascist respectively. There really is no excuse for torture. (Of course, I find the excuses for war dubious in fhe first place so I suppose in the eyes of many my opinion is already void). I observe that people who are gung-ho about using any method necessary against the Muslims might be very unhappy if it were turned around on US citizens:

Perhaps after some point, the US determines that a group within the country is the new "threat to democracy". Will they then torture american citizens? Here's a scenario: suppose some bunch of radicals calling themselves Christians were to fly a plane into a building (or bomb a bunch of abortion clinics, etc.). The precedents and mechanisms are in place and public fear is primed to such a point that some of us might find ourselves in the position of being persecuted. I mean, I go to a nondenominational church and suddenly there's the c-word flying around and suddenly my pastor and my entire leader team (including me) are sitting in some detention center in Romania or something. I know this sounds very illogical, but fear makes people highly illogical. IT COULD HAPPEN. Because when it comes down to it, people don't care what liberties and rights are being trampled just so long as their interests are being protected and it's happening to someone else.

[grandpa]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Between this, the Patriot Act, the so-called "Politics of Fear", etc. I am very worried at the precedents being set. What they are doing is cruel, unconstitutional, and fascist respectively.

The Patriot Act has, or at least had, the wonderful feature of seeing library records as a kind of potential criminal evidence. That's one of the stupidest ideas one can think of, but I was warned of this a few years ago when I became a library aide.
So not only is the Bush Administration everything you listed above, but it's also stupid-- Incredibly stupid.
I can't stress how stupid that part of the Patriot Act is.

Grandpa h.

[phoenix_fire]

Yeah, I'm probably on some list because I checked out Catcher in the Rye from the school library when I was in tenth grade.

[jose]

These new interpretations of treatys set up to protect prisoners captured during war,also apply to how others will treat American POWs in future conflicts. Treat others how you want to be treated, and dont treat others how you dont want to be treated. as to there location, didnt rumsfailed just make a visit to lithuania? i´m sure he wasnt there to buy amber. but maybe to find EDEN

Also Diego garcia
is not some spanish guy but, a place where snip "It would be hard to systematically torture in known detention centres, but you can't track a secret world. The secret locales are one part of the whole picture, the dark underbelly, and they're absolutely outside of the law."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/ne...nd-torture.htm

[PatrickHenry]

Secret prison networks for "detainees", unregulated prison practices, torture and other inhumane treatment, incarceraton without trial, disappearance of suspects without notification of family members, clandestine international transport for unspecified "security" purposes. These are the hallmarks of tyranny. KGB=CIA=Gestapo=Stazi=SAVAK

The faces change, and the names. The vile methods don't.

[CoffeeSaint]

SO: if our government is this evil, if we are committing atrocities equivalent to those committed by the Gestapo and the KGB, the question is:

What do we do about it?

Germans allowed the Nazis to do what they did. Soviets allowed the KGB. Perhaps they did it by tacit agreement, or even vocal agreement; perhaps they did it by not fighting hard enough or yelling loud enough while Hitler, Stalin, et al, took control. I know we've all heard the quote about not speaking up while the Nazis came for the Catholics, etc., and then having nobody left to speak up for you.

Here we are. We are speaking out, but are we doing things? Will our words be enough to effect change? Or should we be doing more?

[Nono]

Quote by: Coffee We are speaking out, but are we doing things?

Who's speaking out? I've been listening for years but hardly hear a damn thing. Guess everybody's too busy scanning the shelves at Walmart.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint are we doing things?

Quote by: CoffeeSaint should we be doing more?

Suggestions?

[jose]

when the last ¨election¨was held in America many people sent comments to our American friends, this was turned round and used as ammunition against ¨foriegners¨meddeling in US politics, well its up to you Americans, we cant change it for you and i am begining to lose sight of any non violent way of getting this corrupt administration out

[YumTum]

Move to Canada!

Or New Zealand. But maybe not Australia. They are going the way of the states.

http://smh.com.au/media/draftbill2005.pdf
They just yesturday said there is a terrorist threat in Australia to fast track the bill.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: YumTum Move to Canada!

Too cold!

Quote by: YumTum Or New Zealand.

You talk funny!

[RickSp]

Quote by: YumTum Move to Canada! Or New Zealand. But maybe not Australia. They are going the way of the states. http://smh.com.au/media/draftbill2005.pdf They just yesturday said there is a terrorist threat in Australia to fast track the bill.

New Zealand does have a certain appeal, but have you addressed that nasty little Orc problem?

[YumTum]

Quote by: RickSp New Zealand does have a certain appeal, but have you addressed that nasty little Orc problem?

Yeah detaining them in hidden hobbit holes all over the country side feeding them fruit.
They break rather easy.

[grandpa]

I hear Sweden and Finland are nice. Except Finland has long dark spells. The seasonal depression there could be quite nasty.

Grandpa h.

[YumTum]

Just found this:
http://newzealandnow.info/
Go On!

[Milton Bradley]

Department of Homeland Security = KGB


Patriot Act = crucifixtion of any remaining patriots, and all of their rights

[jose]

Become a CIA Agent
Start a career in the CIA with an online Criminal Justice degree.
www.criminaljustice-degrees.com

Nice ad :-)