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Mar 7, 2004, 02:28 am
| #1 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 120 | http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article5365.htm I couldn't believe this video when I saw it. It's worse than the one where the helicopter pilots kill 3 Iraqi civilians. In this video there is a wounded man on the ground and a few marines take him out and start cheering. In my opinion this was murder. I don't care if we are at war. All they had to do was put him in cuffs and haul him to jail.. instead they executed him on the spot. |
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Mar 7, 2004, 04:02 pm
| #2 (permalink) (top) |
| Hot Lava Posts: 1,859 | that's your opinion... but you should have read some of the letters... "Tom- I believe the way you present the 'shocking' video you have on your website is very irresponsible and inflammatory. The very fact that it is presented without amplifying remarks or background information, coupled with how you use 'execute' to describe the situation, illustrates how naive you are to military operations. The current policy in Iraq is to SHOOT ON SIGHT ANYBODY emplacing IEDs....yes, those nasty little roadside bombs that have killed almost 200 of our service personnel. But of course, given the very OBVIOUS leftist slant of your website, it is apparent that you wouldn't see fit to report all the facts, choosing instead to attempt to use such media to advance your faltering liberal agenda, rather than condemn a terrorist agenda. Where on your website do you report the assassinations by terrorists who only hope to get their country back up and running, or the indiscriminate bombings that kill innocent, non-combatant Iraqis? Forget the fact that we have build hundreds of schools, enabled democracy, re-energized the Iraqi economy, or that Saddam killed tens of thousands of people (to name a few). According to your website, a day doesn't go by when we aren't killing Afghani children or conspiring with the Israelis to take over the world. Too bad the economy is up, and the Dems best hopes lie w/ Howard Dean...Good luck with that! Bush in 2004! SEMPER FI! Capt. James Kimber United States Marine Corps" ------------------------------------------------------------- "Keep trying, you will find a small group of people willing to carry your torch. A very vocal minority that includes a Hollywood star or two will sing your praises. Get a life and understand that those brave military souls in Iraq and we law enforcement officers here defend you and your constitutional rights on a daily basis. We do not want or expect your gratification. We do not want you to thank us. We do not want you to honor us. We do not want you to buy our family dinners. We do not want you to even recognize our participation in the struggle. We will defend you regardless of your political or idealogical leanings. We want what you want. A country that is free from dictators that squash the dreams of the meek. A society that is safe from the predators who choose to prey on the weak or uninformed. The USA is just such a place where these freedoms are realities. What if. What if you were in Iraq and you were criticizing the government on their treatment of criminal and political prisoners? You're welcome. Elizabeth Mann" "You show only sympathy for our enemies. Why don't you put up a video of Arabs celebrating when the Twin Towers fell? Why don't you put up video of the innocent victims of Arab suicide bombers? Put up some pictures of the innocent women and children that were murdered by the thousands by Saddam and his Military? How about some pictures of the executed American POW's in Iraq? You feel sorry for an enemy solider that was trying to kill Americans, What is wrong with you people have you forgotten what kind of enemy we are dealing with? Are you sympathetic to their cause? Seems to me you want to see dead American kids. This quote is a joke "Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground next to his gun. The Marines kill him -- then cheer." No kidding he had a gun! Read it real close, He had a gun! Marines kill their enemies that is their job! But of course a civilian would know nothing of this. Before you pass judgment on our troops try walking in their boots. Quit standing on our troops to get your warped political message out to your misguided followers! M Walsh Cpl United States Marine Corps" PAY ATTENTION... HE HAD A GUN... it wasn't murder by any stretch "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results... |
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Mar 7, 2004, 04:43 pm
| #3 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 120 | It's still murder. I love how you cherry picked the letters to support your point of view.. look I can do that too. "Dear Sir; I saw both the video on the front page and read the letters from the Marines. Disgusting. I too, am recently returned from seven months in Iraq, with a Division Cavalry unit. I see nothing to defend in that video and am glad that you have archived it so that others can see it. As a scout with over twenty years in the Army, mostly in combat units, I would say that what is captured on the video appears to be murder and in violation of the Law of Land Warfare. This is not how warriors behave but how thugs operate. If the Iraqi man was indeed laying in ambush or setting an IED, then it is entirely appropriate to shoot him and to shoot him until he is no longer a threat. Once he ceased combat operations however, it became the soldiers' job to treat him and give him the same aid they would have one of our wounded soldiers receive. That's how the Law of Land Warfare works. To use him as a target and appear so joyful about it demonstrates that murder occurred and not combat operations. That is not a reflection of how callous all the soldiers are or what is encouraged or allowed in units. That unit has a problem. Any commander that glosses over that incident is neglecting his duty. In the opening days of the war, our medics treated many Iraqi casualties, sometimes heroically. That's what you do. Its the law. I have no love lost for Iraqis, especially after watching the ones so happy to get a handout dance so gleefully in soldier's blood. Our troops killed plenty, engaging in combat actions. My instructions to soldiers on missions almost always included the words - "if at anytime you feel threatened, shoot, shoot first and shoot center mass." But at no time were any of our soldiers instructed, allowed or countenanced to murder an injured person, be he combatant or not. I took pride that my commander insisted we "keep our mean faces on. We are not here to make friends" but also insisted on the humane treatment, even recommending our PA for an award solely for working heroically on an Iraqi casualty. This man had attempted to engage our forces, was shot and shot bad and eventually died. No one was happy that a human died. We understood that if we are to expect to be treated a certain way upon injury or capture, then we must treat the enemy the same way. That's what warriors do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom, Please forward all email from enlisted military personnel that believe this was not an execution or was in any way justifiable to the senators on the Senate Armed Services Committee. They need to be held accountable for this. The most disturbing I read was Capt. James Kimber United States Marine Corps Training & Education Command Reconnaissance & Special Skills Officer. He should be court marshaled for the remarks he made here. Regardless of a persons political affiliation and regardless of how Kimber seems to feel you were unfair for not showing what led to this it was an execution by all applicable laws of war. His failure to recognize this as anything else means he supports executions of what should have been a prisoner or war. Our soldiers deserve to be honored when they are good soldiers and punished when they are not. We have a volunteer Army. If you join you better understand the responsibility you are taking and the laws that apply. Sure there will be split second calls that a soldier wishes he could take back and that has to be considered. But no matter how many times you watch this video the only way you could justify this is if you support war crimes. I hope James Kimber was just blowing off steam from political views and his hatred of anyone who does not share his political affiliation and that this is not representative of the way is actually is as a soldier. As far as the letter from the other soldier that seemed to think you posted vulgarity to be used for propaganda? If he views this video as vulgarity then blame the soldiers involved. He may think that any war crimes need to be swept under the rug and that there should not be any accountability. We have an entire administration that seems to share his belief but there will come a time of reckoning. If our country gets to the place that as a whole we support what happened in that video then we have become a terrorist nation. We need to impose punishment on those that have broke the laws or expect at some point to have a pre-emptive strike against us. Would rather root out the war criminals ourselves and show the rest of the world that we have not became a terrorist nation. Impeaching Bush for lying and misleading us into a war would be a great start. Mike Roberts: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember that we applied the Geneva Conventions of War to some Japanese Generals and hung them for doing exactly the same thing, summarily executing US POWs. John Stone 1SG Perry D. Jefferies <pjefferies@hot.rr.com> Copperas Cove, TX" |
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Mar 7, 2004, 04:46 pm
| #4 (permalink) (top) |
| Hot Lava Posts: 1,859 | yes, as you cherry pick appropriate letters to fit your propaganda... :rolleyes: notice I said SOME... no, it was self defense in a state of war... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results... |
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Mar 7, 2004, 04:53 pm
| #5 (permalink) (top) |
| Location: Finland Posts: 712 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, it was self defense in a state of war...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> In this exact case? Bullshit. Look at the dude, he can barely move. If this is self defense, then the US soldier is probably shooting his own set of knifes in his kitchen. They MIGHT fall on my toes! I do, though, understand that this is probably an -- more or less -- isolated event and it probably is taken very much out of context. Still, not calling that murder is just stupid IMO. It's not how you vage war if you want to be concidered "the good guy". If ANYTHING, they should've known better than to let someone get that on video. |
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Mar 7, 2004, 05:00 pm
| #6 (permalink) (top) |
| Hot Lava Posts: 1,859 | a guy with a gun wants you dead... be nice to him and say please put on these cuffs? it is war, not murder... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results... |
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Mar 7, 2004, 05:15 pm
| #7 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 120 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) a guy with a gun wants you dead... be nice to him and say please put on these cuffs? it is war, not murder...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Impenitent did you even watch the video? |
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Mar 7, 2004, 05:25 pm
| #8 (permalink) (top) |
| Hot Lava Posts: 1,859 | yes I did, and my point remains... he was ARMED... it wasn't murder... maybe you want to walk up to people and say "please put on these cuffs so you don't shoot me" but war doesn't work that way... and neither does POLICE WORK which you seem to favor... put on your blue un hat and say "please surrender" kill or be killed... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results... |
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Mar 7, 2004, 05:51 pm
| #9 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 120 | Your right.. he was armed. That is what got him shot in the first place. However, he wasn't armed when they shot and killed him. The gun was on the ground. Did he look dangerous to you? He didn't to me. If he was pointing a gun at somebody fine.. kill him. He wasn't. This is murder. |
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Mar 7, 2004, 06:22 pm
| #10 (permalink) (top) |
| Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, it was self defense in a state of war...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> A state of war created, fueled and perpetuated by global, multinational interests that has it's tentacles deeply imbedded in the US military-industrial and geopolitical complex. |
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Mar 7, 2004, 07:03 pm
| #11 (permalink) (top) |
| Hot Lava Posts: 1,859 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) Your right.. he was armed. That is what got him shot in the first place. However, he wasn't armed when they shot and killed him. The gun was on the ground. Did he look dangerous to you? He didn't to me. :rolleyes: and you could have whistled and skipped up to him dangling your cuffs... going to bust you now... la de da... now don't move... :rolleyes: be a target if YOU want... don't expect our troops to die for your warped sense of morality If he was pointing a gun at somebody fine.. kill him. He wasn't. This is murder.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> it wasn't murder... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results... |
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Mar 7, 2004, 07:24 pm
| #13 (permalink) (top) |
| Retired  Posts: 7,312 | Why does there have to be a complete either/or? You're talking about a LARGE group of people. I support out military but it doesn't mean they are perfect human beings and that none of them ever take advantage of their position or "lose it" due to what's happened to THEM or their buddy and do horrible things. Our guys have it rough. They've been killed trying to approach people to help them - they don't know when a 5 year old might throw a grenage at them. But on the other side I'm sure some have gone overboard and killed innocents. BTW, the myth of the film of Arabs celebrating 9/11 has been debunked over and over. 1) Sometimes over there your leader tells you to do that for the cameras and you do it or you die. 2) Footage can be taken from one scenario and used to falsely portray another. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali |
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Mar 8, 2004, 12:37 pm
| #17 (permalink) (top) |
| Hot Lava Posts: 1,859 | celebrating the fact that they weren't killed? that isn't inhumane, that is pure human emotional release... and they didn't put the ace of spades on the corpse (if you don't know ask a vietnam vet)... as far as pows are concerned, he didn't surrender... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results... |
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Mar 8, 2004, 01:25 pm
| #19 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Posts: 180 | Impenitent do yourself a favor and give up. By trying to excuse the behavior in that video you just lose all credibility. If it was a US soldier wounded on the ground and Iraqis were taking pot shots at him, I have no doubt you would be screaming murder at the top of your voice. You are a hypocrite |
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Mar 8, 2004, 01:39 pm
| #20 (permalink) (top) |
| Pragmatist  Location: UK London Posts: 1,979 | Hey its a shocking video but its war. Theres a reason people say all is fair in love and war. Its because the person who lives by the rules loses....rules in war are an illusion, an illusion that is presented to people back home to make them feel that everything is nice and fair. Grow up and look at the real picture. War is war, when your very survival is on the line things change and change dramatically. For all the marines know he could have been faking and could have sat up and lobbed a grenade at them in the next instant. Some times you have got to make sure. I'm fairly liberal minded but when it comes right down to it you have got to be realistic. Much as I don't like impenitents viewpoint I'm afraid I find it more plausible than the bleeding heart...I've never been to war and I think it should have some nice buddy buddy rules to make it more fair, like a childrens ball game. Are you the guy whos going to go up to him and check hes not faking it? No you are not, until you guys are in that position don't presume to comment on it. As far as I'm concerned I would have shot him as well, better him than me and my buddies. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway) |
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