Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

dotcoma · Mar 15, 2004, 06:45 pm

It always sounds like Bush is saying it's a war on "tourism". Didn't Dubya learn in Econ 101 that "tourism" is good for the economy.

rmnunez · Mar 20, 2004, 11:30 pm

Mia, I looked it up, there are over a dozen international terrorist groups using the term "Islamic" in their title, dozens more use religious terms like "Jihad", "Martyrs" and such. Its true there are quite a few terrorist groups which likely qualify as legitimate self-determination movements, but these overwhelmingly are not "international" (they only target members of the oppressing government). The focus right now is international terrorism, particularly if the target is a Coalitioneer. First on the list is Al Qaeda and similars, after that there are probably 3 or 4 other international terrorist groups which have targetted the US and other Coalitioneers and then we can start worrying about whether one or another Palestinian international terrorist organization actually is a legitimate movement for self-determination.

Mia · Mar 20, 2004, 11:52 pm

Why did you put Palestinian in there? Palestinian and international don't go together.

Additionally, we were not talking about terrorist organizations, we were talking about conflicts. Wars. Different ballgame. That's what I looked up.

That our terrorist threats almost completely come from Islamic terrorist organizations I agree with you on.

dotcoma · Mar 21, 2004, 03:30 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Write Winger,)
There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

What on earth are you talking about...

rmnunez · Mar 22, 2004, 04:55 am

For an overview of the world’s wars try this http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/ where 33 conflicts are listed in a table (India has 2 and there are 4 mentioned in Indonesia). Of the 29 countries listed, 4 (Afghanistan, Algeria, Indonesia and Turkey) are completely Muslim. The Ethiopian-Eritrean border dispute, the Chechen conflict in Russia, civil war in Georgia, the Kashmiri uprising in India, Indonesia’s Aceh province rebellion, insurgency in the Philippines, Somalia’s internal strife and Sudan’s second civil war, all involve conflicts with Muslims though these may not be the primary reason for the conflict in all cases. Twelve out of 33 conflicts is not bad (thats 27.5% of the world’s wars though Muslims are not quite 16% of the world's people).

The impression one gets is that nowadays Muslims are more conflictive than other religious groups, though it could be their conflicts have nothing to do with religion.

Mia · Mar 22, 2004, 05:03 am

Most are over territory. Like all of us.

rmnunez · Mar 25, 2004, 01:21 am

I wouldn't be so sure. Consider the proliferation of terrorist groups in the Middle East and look into their ideological basis (the ones that call themselves "Islamic" or "Martyrs", on some Jihad). These aren't about reclaiming self-government, they are about establishing religious rule. Whether "most" terrorist movements are really self-determinationist is of little importance, what matters is what most international terrorist groups are about.

Terrorists who only attack the local government or just people in their claimed territory are not "international". The focus of the effort in the US-led war on terrorism is international terrorism which targets westerners. Groups like the Tamil Tigers, as long as they direct their efforts locally, will not be of concern to the US and its Coalitioneers.

Of the international terrorist groups, obviously those of greatest concern to the Coalitioneers are the Islamic fundamentalists which are much more numerous than any other type of terrorists who target foreigners.

Terrorist groups who premise their actions on claims for self-determination are a serious problem because on the one hand they are engaged in criminal activity punishable under international law, while on the other they are entitled to recognition and certain rights. As long as the Coalition focuses on the fundamentalists there will be no problem with the war on terror, but if they start looking into separatists serious legal problems arise.

Mia · Mar 25, 2004, 03:01 am

On the territory thing, I meant the conflicts going on, not foreign terrorist strikes.

damnrad · Mar 30, 2004, 04:57 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (french_jew,)
After Sept.11, after suicide attacks in Turkey, after the discover of many terrorists in European States, after the arrest of a Canadian working for Hamas...etc

Will the terrorists success to make US afraid ?

We french just discover that a terrorist group threatens the french gov't of bomb attacks on trains !
Police already found one !

That's crazy, and I wanna know your feeling about that.

Nathan

Here's a news :
Video : http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?PH...b12c80f2eb34141

Article : http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?pa...b12c80f2eb34141
--------------------------------
News 4 March 2004

4/03 06:06 CET Bomb threats spark French rail search

An army of railway workers in France is undertaking a painstaking search of 32,000 kilometres of rail tracks following a spate of bomb threats. A shadowy group calling itself AZF claims to have planted ten bombs around the network.
It is reportedly demanding a four million euro ransom not to detonate the devices. One bomb has already been discovered on a line near a village close to the city of Limoges.
Police were directed to it by the group. Detectives have been communicating with the extortionists in messages published in the small advertisements section of newspapers.
Since last December the previously unknown group has also sent six threatening letters to President Jacques Chirac and the Interior Ministry. Nicolas Sarkozy, the Interior Minister, has appealed to the media not to report the threats.
"I know the press has a job to do, but please leave the police and gendarmerie to work in peace," he said. The bomb threats have caused unease among commuters, but there is no evidence yet that people are avoiding taking trains. For now the group, which takes its name from a chemicals factory where an explosion killed 31 people three years ago, remains a troubling mystery
-----------------------------------<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yes they will. The U.S. is ruled by a gang of terrorists; and they make the whole world afraid.

Mar 20, 2004, 11:30 pm	#42 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	Mia, I looked it up, there are over a dozen international terrorist groups using the term "Islamic" in their title, dozens more use religious terms like "Jihad", "Martyrs" and such. Its true there are quite a few terrorist groups which likely qualify as legitimate self-determination movements, but these overwhelmingly are not "international" (they only target members of the oppressing government). The focus right now is international terrorism, particularly if the target is a Coalitioneer. First on the list is Al Qaeda and similars, after that there are probably 3 or 4 other international terrorist groups which have targetted the US and other Coalitioneers and then we can start worrying about whether one or another Palestinian international terrorist organization actually is a legitimate movement for self-determination. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Mar 20, 2004, 11:52 pm	#43 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Why did you put Palestinian in there? Palestinian and international don't go together. Additionally, we were not talking about terrorist organizations, we were talking about conflicts. Wars. Different ballgame. That's what I looked up. That our terrorist threats almost completely come from Islamic terrorist organizations I agree with you on. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 21, 2004, 03:30 pm	#44 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Write Winger,) There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> What on earth are you talking about...

Mar 22, 2004, 04:55 am	#45 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	For an overview of the world’s wars try this http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/ where 33 conflicts are listed in a table (India has 2 and there are 4 mentioned in Indonesia). Of the 29 countries listed, 4 (Afghanistan, Algeria, Indonesia and Turkey) are completely Muslim. The Ethiopian-Eritrean border dispute, the Chechen conflict in Russia, civil war in Georgia, the Kashmiri uprising in India, Indonesia’s Aceh province rebellion, insurgency in the Philippines, Somalia’s internal strife and Sudan’s second civil war, all involve conflicts with Muslims though these may not be the primary reason for the conflict in all cases. Twelve out of 33 conflicts is not bad (thats 27.5% of the world’s wars though Muslims are not quite 16% of the world's people). The impression one gets is that nowadays Muslims are more conflictive than other religious groups, though it could be their conflicts have nothing to do with religion. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Mar 22, 2004, 05:03 am	#46 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Most are over territory. Like all of us. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 15, 2004, 06:45 pm	#41 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	It always sounds like Bush is saying it's a war on "tourism". Didn't Dubya learn in Econ 101 that "tourism" is good for the economy.

Mar 25, 2004, 01:21 am	#47 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	I wouldn't be so sure. Consider the proliferation of terrorist groups in the Middle East and look into their ideological basis (the ones that call themselves "Islamic" or "Martyrs", on some Jihad). These aren't about reclaiming self-government, they are about establishing religious rule. Whether "most" terrorist movements are really self-determinationist is of little importance, what matters is what most international terrorist groups are about. Terrorists who only attack the local government or just people in their claimed territory are not "international". The focus of the effort in the US-led war on terrorism is international terrorism which targets westerners. Groups like the Tamil Tigers, as long as they direct their efforts locally, will not be of concern to the US and its Coalitioneers. Of the international terrorist groups, obviously those of greatest concern to the Coalitioneers are the Islamic fundamentalists which are much more numerous than any other type of terrorists who target foreigners. Terrorist groups who premise their actions on claims for self-determination are a serious problem because on the one hand they are engaged in criminal activity punishable under international law, while on the other they are entitled to recognition and certain rights. As long as the Coalition focuses on the fundamentalists there will be no problem with the war on terror, but if they start looking into separatists serious legal problems arise. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Mar 25, 2004, 03:01 am	#48 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	On the territory thing, I meant the conflicts going on, not foreign terrorist strikes. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 30, 2004, 04:57 pm	#49 (permalink) (top)
damnrad Igneous Magma Posts: 264	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (french_jew,) After Sept.11, after suicide attacks in Turkey, after the discover of many terrorists in European States, after the arrest of a Canadian working for Hamas...etc Will the terrorists success to make US afraid ? We french just discover that a terrorist group threatens the french gov't of bomb attacks on trains ! Police already found one ! That's crazy, and I wanna know your feeling about that. Nathan Here's a news : Video : http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?PH...b12c80f2eb34141 Article : http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?pa...b12c80f2eb34141 -------------------------------- News 4 March 2004 4/03 06:06 CET Bomb threats spark French rail search An army of railway workers in France is undertaking a painstaking search of 32,000 kilometres of rail tracks following a spate of bomb threats. A shadowy group calling itself AZF claims to have planted ten bombs around the network. It is reportedly demanding a four million euro ransom not to detonate the devices. One bomb has already been discovered on a line near a village close to the city of Limoges. Police were directed to it by the group. Detectives have been communicating with the extortionists in messages published in the small advertisements section of newspapers. Since last December the previously unknown group has also sent six threatening letters to President Jacques Chirac and the Interior Ministry. Nicolas Sarkozy, the Interior Minister, has appealed to the media not to report the threats. "I know the press has a job to do, but please leave the police and gendarmerie to work in peace," he said. The bomb threats have caused unease among commuters, but there is no evidence yet that people are avoiding taking trains. For now the group, which takes its name from a chemicals factory where an explosion killed 31 people three years ago, remains a troubling mystery -----------------------------------<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes they will. The U.S. is ruled by a gang of terrorists; and they make the whole world afraid.