Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

gecko · Mar 7, 2004, 03:38 pm

what i mean is
it woul dbe great if that was the way it is

but ONE nation can not be that way and expect the other to follow suit

thus peace is a state of being not an end result

sp4mmed · Mar 8, 2004, 01:09 am

People seem to forget that peace isn't something that just happens and then hangs around. It is something that everyone needs to work at keeping.
Another thing that causes a lot of problems is when two sides (or more, as the case may be), do not WANT to see the other's point of view. They become blinded by their own rhetoric and prejudice and then when anyone else is able (or TRIES) to see both perspectives, they are considered the "enemy" as well.
I reckon that that is why peace is so difficult to MAINTAIN.
We are all guilty of being blinkered in one way or another, and that includes the "saints" of the world too.

Heaven help you if you say something that should offend me - I might just decide to drop my morals and beat you to a pulp.
THAT is what worries me about so-called peace-keeping forces.
They end up dictating the conditions of "peace" to whoever is being helped, IF they do not try to understand the situation that they have entered.

mlingley · Mar 10, 2004, 01:51 pm

I found this quote and think it applies to the topic of this thread. I would like to know is it the terrorist who will suceed in making us afraid or our own leaders??

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenty into a patriotic fervor... it emblodens the blood and narrows the mind. When the drums of war have reached a fever pitch blood boils with hate and the mind has closed. The citizenry, infused with fear will offer up their rights unto the leader. How do I know? This is what I have done.. I am Ceaser"

rmnunez · Mar 11, 2004, 11:06 pm

Not in Spain. Terrorism will not make Spaniards yield, these are not people who we can negotiate with. It makes no difference whether some in Spain thought ETA or OBL was behind the barbaric terrorist train attacks. Al Jazeera read a statement from the terrorists saying words to the effect it was an "adjustment of accounts" as a consequence of Spanish involvement in the global war on terror.

The attacks took place over a period of about 4 minutes and at 3 different train stations in the capital at rush hour. Dynamite bombs with electronic temporizers were hidden in 13 backpacks on at least 3 different commuter trains and possibly on the tracks at different locations in the station's switching yards. The bomb squad was able to locate and disarm 3 of the devices which had been set to detonate with timers at a later time. The explosions were strong enough to derail some wagons, blasted holes through the trains which were crammed with working class people bound for their jobs and kids on the way to school. Fortunately a major university to the south of the capital had called a protest march so there was an unusally low affluence of students at the time.

Much has been made over the somewhat "knee-jerk" govermental reaction attributing the attacks to ETA. I've scrutinized the transcripts of what both the King and president said, neither of them makes reference to the ETA, uses those initials or refers to the Basque separatist movement. However we should be mindful that the attacks caused natural confusion, the ETA does this all the time and took place 3 days before national presidential elections in Spain (which I doubt could have been a consideration for OBL). The attack was also exactly 2 and a half years since 911 (so in Spain we get 113). The attack was fairly sophisticated for an ETA attack and they favour using plastic explosive. Some of the detonations took place as trains rolled over triggering mechanisms with explosives in the trains and on the tracks, others were activated by remote control, the 3 detonated in controlled explosions by bomb squads had electronic timers. The sophistication suggests its OBL and not ETA, which usually focuses its attacks on the Army, Guardia Civil, Police and political figures (plus whoever happens to be in the vicinity at the unfortunate moment) this attack struck at ordinary working stiffs and school kids. As the president noted, the attack was aimed at Spaniards for the mere fact that they come from Spain.

The heinous attacks give reason to Spain's renewed efforts to combat international terrorism. Basque terrorism is quite international (they have funding from many supporters across Latin America) and Spain could use greater international cooperation here (from the French especially). Mexico has been remiss in the matter and it is said there are ETA ties with the FARC and have been with the Shinning Path.

But here the attack is from OBL and Spain is committed to the effort to erradicate this terrorism too. I´m struck by OBL's stupidity. They've done this before, he's an idiot for not learning from that attack on the Australians. Then, as now, the attack was aimed at disuading support for the US-led effort. On the eve of deployment masses were murdered and OBL's mouthpiece claimed reposibility, Australians were incensed and enhanced commitments. Now the moron has done it again telling Spain he's holding them accountable for supporting the Americans in Iraq. OBL needs to know nations are not persuaded by attacking them. I suppose it is like Aznar said, there's no room for negotiation with this sort of people. States are not going to change to accomodate terrorism. And of course, there's no chance of coexisting with terrorism. It really is an all or nothing situation. Some ridicule the Bushism "you're either with us or against us" but the fact is that the 911 rhetoric makes sense. As I see it, better to die on your feet than survive on your knees.

mlingley · Mar 12, 2004, 01:27 am

Has the OBL claimed resposibility for this attack?

Another group that is claiming responsibility for the bombing in Spain sent a letter to a London based Arabic newspaper. The group claimed that a "Black Wind of Death" was going to spread across the United States. They went on to say that these preparations are 90% complete. Pretty scary if it is true. Could be a cheap way to instill fear in us all. Are you afraid?

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2639081

Mia · Mar 12, 2004, 01:37 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
I found this quote and think it applies to the topic of this thread. I would like to know is it the terrorist who will suceed in making us afraid or our own leaders??

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenty into a patriotic fervor... it emblodens the blood and narrows the mind. When the drums of war have reached a fever pitch blood boils with hate and the mind has closed. The citizenry, infused with fear will offer up their rights unto the leader. How do I know? This is what I have done.. I am Ceaser"<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

That is good one!

rmnunez · Mar 12, 2004, 02:22 am

A van with 7 detonators and a cassette tape with Q´ranic verses in Arabic (just the verses, no other message) was found about 5 hours later. Europol's director, Jurgen Storbeck noted the ETA usually warns before its bigger bombs, does not attack large crowds prefering individual victims who are almost always only soldiers, cops or politicians. Many have noted the relative sophistication employed (all these different triggering devices, trains exploding as they passed one another, explosives in the trains, at the stations and on the tracks). The explosive used was not the plastic prefered in past ETA attacks. Experts believe 911 resulted in a qualitative change in terrorist atacks so that small incidents will no longer do, the Madrid attacks exhibit the hallmarks of Islamic fundamentalist style terrorism, hundreds killed and thousands injured. "Spain is a target of Islamists because it sided with Britain and the US in this war on terrorism. I've seen statements from militant Islamists who have claimed parts of Spain for the Islamic world they envision" said Richard Evans, editor for Jane's Insurgency and Terrorism section.

rmnunez · Mar 14, 2004, 01:48 am

From the video message claiming Al Qaeda responsibility for the attacks in Madrid:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
>You love life and we love death, which gives an example of what the Prophet Muhammad said.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Don't tell me it has nothing to do with Islam.

ruiner · Mar 14, 2004, 09:20 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Don't tell me it has nothing to do with Islam<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Clearly it has got something to do with islam

But many Muslims are totally against the likes of al-qaeda and don't want al-qaeda to be the first thing people think of when they think of islam

Mia · Mar 14, 2004, 04:29 pm

Yeah, and the OK City bombing and Jim Jones and Waco and the KKK has to do with Christianity - why? Because the wack-jobs quoted the Bible!

Brilliant logic.

This quote is not remotely true - Prophet Muhammad did not stand for war and death at all. A terroist saying it doesn't make it so.

tusaki · Mar 14, 2004, 05:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (ruiner,)
Clearly it has got something to do with islam

But many Muslims are totally against the likes of al-qaeda and don't want al-qaeda to be the first thing people think of when they think of islam<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
Yeah, and the OK City bombing and Jim Jones and Waco and the KKK has to do with Christianity - why? Because the wack-jobs quoted the Bible!

Brilliant logic.

This quote is not remotely true - Prophet Muhammad did not stand for war and death at all. A terroist saying it doesn't make it so.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Hear hear. Ruiner & Mia, good posts.

Write Winger · Mar 14, 2004, 10:09 pm

There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.

Sodfather · Mar 14, 2004, 10:59 pm

"Success" is not a predicate.

ruiner · Mar 14, 2004, 11:44 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

There are about 130 wars going on that involve governments....hmmm

tusaki · Mar 15, 2004, 08:46 am

I dont think there are that many wars which involve muslims. And even with the wars which do involve them, it's usually extremists. And you are going to have a hard time arguing that all muslims are extremists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars - list of wars at the wikipedia site.
http://comnet.org/local/orgs/wilpf/listofwars.html - list of wars at the Women's International League for Peace and freedom site.
http://www.hiik.de/en/main.htm - report about wars at the Heidelberg Institute of International Conflict Research at the Department of Political Science at the University of Heidelberg

NotScientific · Mar 15, 2004, 09:01 am

There are many many muslims in the world and if 5% is doing very bad things, doesn't mean that the other 95% will do these bad things too.

Americans have areputation of bein stupid (sorry about that) but I know that some are brilliant too. We just can't generalize everything like this.

Mia · Mar 15, 2004, 03:40 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Write Winger,)
There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Do you ever provide sources or do you just like to bust in with unqualified, extreme statements about everything and everyone you're against?

I'd like to read up on this if it's true. Help me out.

**Pooeypants** · Mar 15, 2004, 04:13 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (ruiner,)

There are about 130 wars going on that involve governments....hmmm<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
And all of them involve people....hmm

damnrad · Mar 15, 2004, 04:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (NotScientific,)
Let's face it. Who are the real terrorists? That's bush!

He's killing millions of innocents, making million of children without parents. If he was arresting the bad ones, that would've been ok but he's not.

Now think abt it, when you kill the parents of a small child, you're actually creating a generation of terrorists. This child will always hate you and that's it.

Bush is not banishing terrorism but in the contrary...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Right, Dubya has just what he says it is: a war on Terra. And the entire world is suffering from it.

When terrorists struck on 9/11, this was after many months of the Dubya administration's ignoring of a plan to combat terrorism developed under Clinton. In those months, Dubya had deemphasized anti-terrorism efforts already in place. He was asleep at the switch, at best. All his admin could accomplish immediately was: sending Dubya running off to Omaha and Cheney to 'an undisclosed location'; and, while all other non-military flights in the nation were shut down, making sure that bin Laden family members in the U.S. were allowed to fly out of the U.S.

All that Dubya has been able to do since has been to: make the world a more-dangerous place (e.g., Al Qaida had no traction in Saddam's Iraq, despite the Bushista lies, but it may now be involved in bombings there); take away as many American freedoms as can be slipped through Congress or otherwise decreed; and justify any number of crimes against Americans and the rest of the world under the rubric of an open-ended, administration-defined 'war on Terra.'

Things like the Spanish bombing are horrible. Terrorism is real in the world. But the terrorists that horrify and terrify me the most are the Busheviks.

Mia · Mar 15, 2004, 04:35 pm

Most of them involve independance issues. Even if it were true that 129 out of 130 involve muslims ( which it is not), the presumption that this says something about muslims is false on many levels.

1) If we are going to use that logic, then let's look at all the wars throughout history and find out who the biggest killers are year-to-date. That would be us Christians.

2) The Western World of developed nations had so many wars to establish borders and who would be independant of whom, etc.

That is what is going on now in many developing nations, some which happen to have large muslim populations.

How does that have to do with being muslim instead of the region and the time and the politics involved?

Lastly, others are the aggressors in many of the conflicts "involving muslims"

Like Christians, Jews, and Hindu's just to name three.

Mar 11, 2004, 11:06 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	Not in Spain. Terrorism will not make Spaniards yield, these are not people who we can negotiate with. It makes no difference whether some in Spain thought ETA or OBL was behind the barbaric terrorist train attacks. Al Jazeera read a statement from the terrorists saying words to the effect it was an "adjustment of accounts" as a consequence of Spanish involvement in the global war on terror. The attacks took place over a period of about 4 minutes and at 3 different train stations in the capital at rush hour. Dynamite bombs with electronic temporizers were hidden in 13 backpacks on at least 3 different commuter trains and possibly on the tracks at different locations in the station's switching yards. The bomb squad was able to locate and disarm 3 of the devices which had been set to detonate with timers at a later time. The explosions were strong enough to derail some wagons, blasted holes through the trains which were crammed with working class people bound for their jobs and kids on the way to school. Fortunately a major university to the south of the capital had called a protest march so there was an unusally low affluence of students at the time. Much has been made over the somewhat "knee-jerk" govermental reaction attributing the attacks to ETA. I've scrutinized the transcripts of what both the King and president said, neither of them makes reference to the ETA, uses those initials or refers to the Basque separatist movement. However we should be mindful that the attacks caused natural confusion, the ETA does this all the time and took place 3 days before national presidential elections in Spain (which I doubt could have been a consideration for OBL). The attack was also exactly 2 and a half years since 911 (so in Spain we get 113). The attack was fairly sophisticated for an ETA attack and they favour using plastic explosive. Some of the detonations took place as trains rolled over triggering mechanisms with explosives in the trains and on the tracks, others were activated by remote control, the 3 detonated in controlled explosions by bomb squads had electronic timers. The sophistication suggests its OBL and not ETA, which usually focuses its attacks on the Army, Guardia Civil, Police and political figures (plus whoever happens to be in the vicinity at the unfortunate moment) this attack struck at ordinary working stiffs and school kids. As the president noted, the attack was aimed at Spaniards for the mere fact that they come from Spain. The heinous attacks give reason to Spain's renewed efforts to combat international terrorism. Basque terrorism is quite international (they have funding from many supporters across Latin America) and Spain could use greater international cooperation here (from the French especially). Mexico has been remiss in the matter and it is said there are ETA ties with the FARC and have been with the Shinning Path. But here the attack is from OBL and Spain is committed to the effort to erradicate this terrorism too. I´m struck by OBL's stupidity. They've done this before, he's an idiot for not learning from that attack on the Australians. Then, as now, the attack was aimed at disuading support for the US-led effort. On the eve of deployment masses were murdered and OBL's mouthpiece claimed reposibility, Australians were incensed and enhanced commitments. Now the moron has done it again telling Spain he's holding them accountable for supporting the Americans in Iraq. OBL needs to know nations are not persuaded by attacking them. I suppose it is like Aznar said, there's no room for negotiation with this sort of people. States are not going to change to accomodate terrorism. And of course, there's no chance of coexisting with terrorism. It really is an all or nothing situation. Some ridicule the Bushism "you're either with us or against us" but the fact is that the 911 rhetoric makes sense. As I see it, better to die on your feet than survive on your knees. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Mar 12, 2004, 01:37 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) I found this quote and think it applies to the topic of this thread. I would like to know is it the terrorist who will suceed in making us afraid or our own leaders?? "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenty into a patriotic fervor... it emblodens the blood and narrows the mind. When the drums of war have reached a fever pitch blood boils with hate and the mind has closed. The citizenry, infused with fear will offer up their rights unto the leader. How do I know? This is what I have done.. I am Ceaser"<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> That is good one! "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 12, 2004, 02:22 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	A van with 7 detonators and a cassette tape with Q´ranic verses in Arabic (just the verses, no other message) was found about 5 hours later. Europol's director, Jurgen Storbeck noted the ETA usually warns before its bigger bombs, does not attack large crowds prefering individual victims who are almost always only soldiers, cops or politicians. Many have noted the relative sophistication employed (all these different triggering devices, trains exploding as they passed one another, explosives in the trains, at the stations and on the tracks). The explosive used was not the plastic prefered in past ETA attacks. Experts believe 911 resulted in a qualitative change in terrorist atacks so that small incidents will no longer do, the Madrid attacks exhibit the hallmarks of Islamic fundamentalist style terrorism, hundreds killed and thousands injured. "Spain is a target of Islamists because it sided with Britain and the US in this war on terrorism. I've seen statements from militant Islamists who have claimed parts of Spain for the Islamic world they envision" said Richard Evans, editor for Jane's Insurgency and Terrorism section. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Mar 14, 2004, 01:48 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	From the video message claiming Al Qaeda responsibility for the attacks in Madrid: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by >You love life and we love death, which gives an example of what the Prophet Muhammad said.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Don't tell me it has nothing to do with Islam. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Mar 14, 2004, 09:20 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
ruiner Igneous Magma Posts: 180	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Don't tell me it has nothing to do with Islam<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Clearly it has got something to do with islam But many Muslims are totally against the likes of al-qaeda and don't want al-qaeda to be the first thing people think of when they think of islam

Mar 7, 2004, 03:38 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
gecko Molten Ash Posts: 70	what i mean is it woul dbe great if that was the way it is but ONE nation can not be that way and expect the other to follow suit thus peace is a state of being not an end result

Mar 8, 2004, 01:09 am	#22 (permalink) (top)
sp4mmed Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	People seem to forget that peace isn't something that just happens and then hangs around. It is something that everyone needs to work at keeping. Another thing that causes a lot of problems is when two sides (or more, as the case may be), do not WANT to see the other's point of view. They become blinded by their own rhetoric and prejudice and then when anyone else is able (or TRIES) to see both perspectives, they are considered the "enemy" as well. I reckon that that is why peace is so difficult to MAINTAIN. We are all guilty of being blinkered in one way or another, and that includes the "saints" of the world too. Heaven help you if you say something that should offend me - I might just decide to drop my morals and beat you to a pulp. THAT is what worries me about so-called peace-keeping forces. They end up dictating the conditions of "peace" to whoever is being helped, IF they do not try to understand the situation that they have entered.

Mar 10, 2004, 01:51 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	I found this quote and think it applies to the topic of this thread. I would like to know is it the terrorist who will suceed in making us afraid or our own leaders?? "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenty into a patriotic fervor... it emblodens the blood and narrows the mind. When the drums of war have reached a fever pitch blood boils with hate and the mind has closed. The citizenry, infused with fear will offer up their rights unto the leader. How do I know? This is what I have done.. I am Ceaser"

Mar 12, 2004, 01:27 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	Has the OBL claimed resposibility for this attack? Another group that is claiming responsibility for the bombing in Spain sent a letter to a London based Arabic newspaper. The group claimed that a "Black Wind of Death" was going to spread across the United States. They went on to say that these preparations are 90% complete. Pretty scary if it is true. Could be a cheap way to instill fear in us all. Are you afraid? http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2639081

Mar 14, 2004, 04:29 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Yeah, and the OK City bombing and Jim Jones and Waco and the KKK has to do with Christianity - why? Because the wack-jobs quoted the Bible! Brilliant logic. This quote is not remotely true - Prophet Muhammad did not stand for war and death at all. A terroist saying it doesn't make it so. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 14, 2004, 05:07 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (ruiner,) Clearly it has got something to do with islam But many Muslims are totally against the likes of al-qaeda and don't want al-qaeda to be the first thing people think of when they think of islam<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) Yeah, and the OK City bombing and Jim Jones and Waco and the KKK has to do with Christianity - why? Because the wack-jobs quoted the Bible! Brilliant logic. This quote is not remotely true - Prophet Muhammad did not stand for war and death at all. A terroist saying it doesn't make it so.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Hear hear. Ruiner & Mia, good posts. Hope & Dream

Mar 14, 2004, 10:09 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
Write Winger Molten Ash Location: Texas Posts: 96	There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence. My book... Write Winger: Solutions for the Politically Oblique available from Booklocker.com

Mar 14, 2004, 10:59 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	"Success" is not a predicate.

Mar 14, 2004, 11:44 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
ruiner Igneous Magma Posts: 180	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There are about 130 wars going on that involve governments....hmmm

Mar 15, 2004, 08:46 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	I dont think there are that many wars which involve muslims. And even with the wars which do involve them, it's usually extremists. And you are going to have a hard time arguing that all muslims are extremists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars - list of wars at the wikipedia site. http://comnet.org/local/orgs/wilpf/listofwars.html - list of wars at the Women's International League for Peace and freedom site. http://www.hiik.de/en/main.htm - report about wars at the Heidelberg Institute of International Conflict Research at the Department of Political Science at the University of Heidelberg Hope & Dream

Mar 15, 2004, 09:01 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
NotScientific Molten Ash Location: Mauritius Posts: 35	There are many many muslims in the world and if 5% is doing very bad things, doesn't mean that the other 95% will do these bad things too. Americans have areputation of bein stupid (sorry about that) but I know that some are brilliant too. We just can't generalize everything like this. I'm Columnist here at Volconvo.com and also at BackWash.com. Check my columns in the Science forum then.

Mar 15, 2004, 03:40 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Write Winger,) There are about 130 wars going on the world....about 129 of them involve Moslems. but hey might just be a coincidence.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Do you ever provide sources or do you just like to bust in with unqualified, extreme statements about everything and everyone you're against? I'd like to read up on this if it's true. Help me out. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 15, 2004, 04:13 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (ruiner,) There are about 130 wars going on that involve governments....hmmm<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> And all of them involve people....hmm War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Mar 15, 2004, 04:27 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
damnrad Igneous Magma Posts: 264	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (NotScientific,) Let's face it. Who are the real terrorists? That's bush! He's killing millions of innocents, making million of children without parents. If he was arresting the bad ones, that would've been ok but he's not. Now think abt it, when you kill the parents of a small child, you're actually creating a generation of terrorists. This child will always hate you and that's it. Bush is not banishing terrorism but in the contrary...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Right, Dubya has just what he says it is: a war on Terra. And the entire world is suffering from it. When terrorists struck on 9/11, this was after many months of the Dubya administration's ignoring of a plan to combat terrorism developed under Clinton. In those months, Dubya had deemphasized anti-terrorism efforts already in place. He was asleep at the switch, at best. All his admin could accomplish immediately was: sending Dubya running off to Omaha and Cheney to 'an undisclosed location'; and, while all other non-military flights in the nation were shut down, making sure that bin Laden family members in the U.S. were allowed to fly out of the U.S. All that Dubya has been able to do since has been to: make the world a more-dangerous place (e.g., Al Qaida had no traction in Saddam's Iraq, despite the Bushista lies, but it may now be involved in bombings there); take away as many American freedoms as can be slipped through Congress or otherwise decreed; and justify any number of crimes against Americans and the rest of the world under the rubric of an open-ended, administration-defined 'war on Terra.' Things like the Spanish bombing are horrible. Terrorism is real in the world. But the terrorists that horrify and terrify me the most are the Busheviks.

Mar 15, 2004, 04:35 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Most of them involve independance issues. Even if it were true that 129 out of 130 involve muslims ( which it is not), the presumption that this says something about muslims is false on many levels. 1) If we are going to use that logic, then let's look at all the wars throughout history and find out who the biggest killers are year-to-date. That would be us Christians. 2) The Western World of developed nations had so many wars to establish borders and who would be independant of whom, etc. That is what is going on now in many developing nations, some which happen to have large muslim populations. How does that have to do with being muslim instead of the region and the time and the politics involved? Lastly, others are the aggressors in many of the conflicts "involving muslims" Like Christians, Jews, and Hindu's just to name three. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali