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Mr.Vicchio · Mar 2, 2004, 05:45 pm

As we watch the news and see Rosie O’Donnell marry her longtime girlfriend, hear testimony about how happy newly wedded gay and lesbian couples are, read stories on why criminals are not really at fault for their crimes, how Christians are pushing their religion on the American people and finally how we just need to quit judging the actions of others.

I would like to know, how far is too far? The rule of law, the foundations of American culture and the religious underpinnings our society are based on are crumbling under the constant assault of "diversity and personal choice". We are told how intolerant Christian beliefs are, and that the traditional approaches to such issues as crime and punishment, marriage and a host of other social norms are wrong.

Where though, does it stop? America's main strength is the rule of law. But constantly it seems, some judge, or a group of judges decide that social norms are not acceptable, and alter the law to fit their views. Liberals are very vocal on their stance that we need to accept the views of others, their beliefs, needs and wants, while sacrificing our own. Along the way to a "diverse and tolerant" culture, the biggest victims of this policy have been the standards of American Society. We are in flux, and the fall from morality to perverse depravity is not only well under way, the bottom is nowhere in sight.

We are met daily with articles, news stories and opinion pieces in such bed rocks of Liberal thought as the NY Times on how Conservative hate, bigotry, intolerance and homophobia deny people their constitutional rights. But we never see the stories showing why the Christians, as a general rule the target of such pieces, feel the way they do. All we are told is how wrong they are. The consequence of this tactic is that people are emotionally driven to defend the "rights" of those being unfairly prosecuted, all the way reshaping and molding American Society into a new animal, one whose standards are flimsy and change with the opinion polls. That is a dangerous path, fraught with dangers that people miss in their attempt to be fair.

This is one rabbit hole we should never have allowed ourselves to go down, and now that we are, one has to wonder if the light at the top will fade before we find bottom, let alone guide us to a way back up.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/...ead.php?t=20275

Mar 2, 2004, 05:58 pm

The solution is to not seek to control the lives of any other person than your own. Sure this means moving away from many of the dictates of the church (such as child molestation) but it also allows each of us to live, think, work, and worship as we see fit as long as we do not cause direct tangible harm to others.

damnrad · Mar 2, 2004, 06:31 pm

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,)
As we watch the news and see Rosie O’Donnell marry her longtime girlfriend, hear testimony about how happy newly wedded gay and lesbian couples are, read stories on why criminals are not really at fault for their crimes, how Christians are pushing their religion on the American people and finally how we just need to quit judging the actions of others.

I would like to know, how far is too far? The rule of law, the foundations of American culture and the religious underpinnings our society are based on are crumbling under the constant assault of "diversity and personal choice". We are told how intolerant Christian beliefs are, and that the traditional approaches to such issues as crime and punishment, marriage and a host of other social norms are wrong.

Where though, does it stop? America's main strength is the rule of law. But constantly it seems, some judge, or a group of judges decide that social norms are not acceptable, and alter the law to fit their views. Liberals are very vocal on their stance that we need to accept the views of others, their beliefs, needs and wants, while sacrificing our own. Along the way to a "diverse and tolerant" culture, the biggest victims of this policy have been the standards of American Society. We are in flux, and the fall from morality to perverse depravity is not only well under way, the bottom is nowhere in sight.

We are met daily with articles, news stories and opinion pieces in such bed rocks of Liberal thought as the NY Times on how Conservative hate, bigotry, intolerance and homophobia deny people their constitutional rights. But we never see the stories showing why the Christians, as a general rule the target of such pieces, feel the way they do. All we are told is how wrong they are. The consequence of this tactic is that people are emotionally driven to defend the "rights" of those being unfairly prosecuted, all the way reshaping and molding American Society into a new animal, one whose standards are flimsy and change with the opinion polls. That is a dangerous path, fraught with dangers that people miss in their attempt to be fair.

This is one rabbit hole we should never have allowed ourselves to go down, and now that we are, one has to wonder if the light at the top will fade before we find bottom, let alone guide us to a way back up.
http://www.
planetside-universe.com/for...ead.php?t=20275<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Hmm, "the religious underpinnings our society are based on"? Sorry, but our 'society' is not based on religious underpinnings. Some elements of the culture are, and many widespread assumptions and ideologies are; but our society is not based on religious underpinnings. Our society is a hodgepodge that was allowed by a rational decision of our poliitcal founders to NOT BASE our government on any one religious view, rather allowing for religious and ideological diversity. One consequence of this is that new religions have been able to take root and sometimes flourish, so that our population as a whole exhibits much greater religiosity than found in other developed societies in the world; but this does not make religion an 'underpinning' of our society. Moreover, the views you espouse are not about religion being an underpinning -- they rather content that YOUR religiouis views are said underpinning. No thanks! No deal!

Now, some of your concerns about personal choice exhibit a different contrast: individualism versus collectivism. What you are actually bemoaning is our society's tendency to choose the individualistic approach. For example, gay marriage is justified are bemoaned on the basis of whether one thinks that individuals should be able to choose whatever styles of life that they wish. A rational argument is sometimes attempted on the basis that some 'choices' undermine societal cohesion or important societal functions, such as responsible raising of children. There are problems with such an argument, however. For one, little evidence has been produced that gay marriage would in any way undermine necessary societal institutions, including the family. Economic forces have shaped the development of what we consider the family far more than anything else: including our seeing the 'nuclear family' as 'natural,' when it is not in a world context, nor in the context of our own history. Another problem is that the approach assumes that gay marriage is the outgrowth of a 'choice' of a 'gay lifestyle,' when the evidence rather supports the view that sexual orientation is a basic feature of personality, whether inborn or developed early-on. In the light of this, the demand for gay marriage reflects an insistence on institutions compatible with one's orientation, to not be discriminated against on the basis of one's orientation. And what's the 'choice' shown in the demand for gay marriage? It's the embracing of the concept of marriage and the wish to participate in the institution -- as opposed to rejecting the concept and living outside the institution. Say what you will of that choice, the choice itself supports, rather than undermines, tradition.

Mar 2, 2004, 05:45 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	As we watch the news and see Rosie O’Donnell marry her longtime girlfriend, hear testimony about how happy newly wedded gay and lesbian couples are, read stories on why criminals are not really at fault for their crimes, how Christians are pushing their religion on the American people and finally how we just need to quit judging the actions of others. I would like to know, how far is too far? The rule of law, the foundations of American culture and the religious underpinnings our society are based on are crumbling under the constant assault of "diversity and personal choice". We are told how intolerant Christian beliefs are, and that the traditional approaches to such issues as crime and punishment, marriage and a host of other social norms are wrong. Where though, does it stop? America's main strength is the rule of law. But constantly it seems, some judge, or a group of judges decide that social norms are not acceptable, and alter the law to fit their views. Liberals are very vocal on their stance that we need to accept the views of others, their beliefs, needs and wants, while sacrificing our own. Along the way to a "diverse and tolerant" culture, the biggest victims of this policy have been the standards of American Society. We are in flux, and the fall from morality to perverse depravity is not only well under way, the bottom is nowhere in sight. We are met daily with articles, news stories and opinion pieces in such bed rocks of Liberal thought as the NY Times on how Conservative hate, bigotry, intolerance and homophobia deny people their constitutional rights. But we never see the stories showing why the Christians, as a general rule the target of such pieces, feel the way they do. All we are told is how wrong they are. The consequence of this tactic is that people are emotionally driven to defend the "rights" of those being unfairly prosecuted, all the way reshaping and molding American Society into a new animal, one whose standards are flimsy and change with the opinion polls. That is a dangerous path, fraught with dangers that people miss in their attempt to be fair. This is one rabbit hole we should never have allowed ourselves to go down, and now that we are, one has to wonder if the light at the top will fade before we find bottom, let alone guide us to a way back up. http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/...ead.php?t=20275 Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Mar 2, 2004, 05:58 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	The solution is to not seek to control the lives of any other person than your own. Sure this means moving away from many of the dictates of the church (such as child molestation) but it also allows each of us to live, think, work, and worship as we see fit as long as we do not cause direct tangible harm to others.

Mar 2, 2004, 06:31 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
damnrad Igneous Magma Posts: 264	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,) As we watch the news and see Rosie O’Donnell marry her longtime girlfriend, hear testimony about how happy newly wedded gay and lesbian couples are, read stories on why criminals are not really at fault for their crimes, how Christians are pushing their religion on the American people and finally how we just need to quit judging the actions of others. I would like to know, how far is too far? The rule of law, the foundations of American culture and the religious underpinnings our society are based on are crumbling under the constant assault of "diversity and personal choice". We are told how intolerant Christian beliefs are, and that the traditional approaches to such issues as crime and punishment, marriage and a host of other social norms are wrong. Where though, does it stop? America's main strength is the rule of law. But constantly it seems, some judge, or a group of judges decide that social norms are not acceptable, and alter the law to fit their views. Liberals are very vocal on their stance that we need to accept the views of others, their beliefs, needs and wants, while sacrificing our own. Along the way to a "diverse and tolerant" culture, the biggest victims of this policy have been the standards of American Society. We are in flux, and the fall from morality to perverse depravity is not only well under way, the bottom is nowhere in sight. We are met daily with articles, news stories and opinion pieces in such bed rocks of Liberal thought as the NY Times on how Conservative hate, bigotry, intolerance and homophobia deny people their constitutional rights. But we never see the stories showing why the Christians, as a general rule the target of such pieces, feel the way they do. All we are told is how wrong they are. The consequence of this tactic is that people are emotionally driven to defend the "rights" of those being unfairly prosecuted, all the way reshaping and molding American Society into a new animal, one whose standards are flimsy and change with the opinion polls. That is a dangerous path, fraught with dangers that people miss in their attempt to be fair. This is one rabbit hole we should never have allowed ourselves to go down, and now that we are, one has to wonder if the light at the top will fade before we find bottom, let alone guide us to a way back up. http://www. planetside-universe.com/for...ead.php?t=20275<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Hmm, "the religious underpinnings our society are based on"? Sorry, but our 'society' is not based on religious underpinnings. Some elements of the culture are, and many widespread assumptions and ideologies are; but our society is not based on religious underpinnings. Our society is a hodgepodge that was allowed by a rational decision of our poliitcal founders to NOT BASE our government on any one religious view, rather allowing for religious and ideological diversity. One consequence of this is that new religions have been able to take root and sometimes flourish, so that our population as a whole exhibits much greater religiosity than found in other developed societies in the world; but this does not make religion an 'underpinning' of our society. Moreover, the views you espouse are not about religion being an underpinning -- they rather content that YOUR religiouis views are said underpinning. No thanks! No deal! Now, some of your concerns about personal choice exhibit a different contrast: individualism versus collectivism. What you are actually bemoaning is our society's tendency to choose the individualistic approach. For example, gay marriage is justified are bemoaned on the basis of whether one thinks that individuals should be able to choose whatever styles of life that they wish. A rational argument is sometimes attempted on the basis that some 'choices' undermine societal cohesion or important societal functions, such as responsible raising of children. There are problems with such an argument, however. For one, little evidence has been produced that gay marriage would in any way undermine necessary societal institutions, including the family. Economic forces have shaped the development of what we consider the family far more than anything else: including our seeing the 'nuclear family' as 'natural,' when it is not in a world context, nor in the context of our own history. Another problem is that the approach assumes that gay marriage is the outgrowth of a 'choice' of a 'gay lifestyle,' when the evidence rather supports the view that sexual orientation is a basic feature of personality, whether inborn or developed early-on. In the light of this, the demand for gay marriage reflects an insistence on institutions compatible with one's orientation, to not be discriminated against on the basis of one's orientation. And what's the 'choice' shown in the demand for gay marriage? It's the embracing of the concept of marriage and the wish to participate in the institution -- as opposed to rejecting the concept and living outside the institution. Say what you will of that choice, the choice itself supports, rather than undermines, tradition.