Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Mathieu · Mar 3, 2004, 01:11 am

Well freedom is only what the length of the rope let us do .
But if he accept to be in the room, he also accept the length of his rope . We are never entirely free. You can stop to breath, but I do not recommend it to you

However , no onw will argue that this limit to you r liberty of choice constitute coercition . Maybe an asthmatic or someone suffering from emphysema will find that cruel. But most people don't see it as a limit to their freedom.

How important is it that it must be a True choice ? What if , close or open , the man already ruled out that leaving the room does not constitute a viable option ? Is it then important that he is able to do the choice or not ? Isn't that accesory ?

Mar 3, 2004, 01:24 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
There not much on wich we agree. If someone was ever able to show me that tax necesarly equals theft in every case, then I'll be happy it is this way .<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

THis is a blatantly false claim Mathieu. You in fact have been shown that this is necessarily the case, and you have as of yet been completely unable to offer any semblence of a reasoned argument which calls any aspect of this into doubt, much less refutes it.

That you do not like the nature of reality, does not change reality. So whether or not you are willing to accept the methodology that has given us all knowledge, and is the foundation upon which philosophy and its subset which is science is based, is completely irrelevent. You have been shown, but you simply ignore the proof choosing instead to offer insults, false assertions, personal attacks, and red herrings.

BTW as much as you may hate it all of the above is absolutely objectively verifiable..

Mar 3, 2004, 01:27 am

Setting aside Mathieu's games and fallacies for a moment, there is a relevent point that deserves some clarification. The thread subject line is Tax=theft, and while it is true, and has been clearly and conclusively demonstrated that all taxation is necessarily theft, the relation is not one of identity as is signified by the "=." Some acts of theft are not taxation, in fact most acts of theft are not taxation, though all acts of taxation are necessarily theft as we have shown conclusively, employing sound reasoning and the facts of the matter.

Perhaps this is splitting hairs but the point deserved to be made.

Mathieu · Mar 3, 2004, 01:37 am

You have not shown nothing Lightbearer, you can gloat as much as you want,call everything wich does not come from your mouth fallacies, but that does not make you right. and I won't spend more time to try to make you understand something you are unable to understand .

Call it ad hominem or whatever, I've stated my tought and you've not shown any shade of a refutation of it. Stop making noise like that in the void to satisfy your little ego.

Mia · Mar 3, 2004, 03:31 am

Just look at the screen name and you can see you won't get anywhere. "Lightbearer" I love people who shove their opinions down others throats by calling them "facts"

Jackney Sneeb · Mar 3, 2004, 09:23 am

What is the difference between a) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," and b) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," where 'a' is the Mafia and 'b' is the state?

--Jackney Sneeb

Jackney Sneeb · Mar 3, 2004, 09:23 am

What is the difference between a) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," and b) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," where 'a' is the Mafia and 'b' is the state?

--Jackney Sneeb

Mar 3, 2004, 10:13 am

Mia and Mathieu,

I have to laugh at both of you for this latest pathetic attempt to mischaracterize all of the objective refutations of your claims as mere opinion, and as somehow an ego trip. I have been explicit that NONE of this depends on me as a person, or in fact on any individual. I have encouraged you to employ reason, to seek out evidence, to find any error that has been made in the arguments give, but thus far all you both have offered has been insults and personal attacks. What is it that scares you so very much?

There is no gloating here, I do not care one whit about your abilites or accomplishments and how they compare to any other person, including myself. If either of you have behaved civilly, honestly, or reasonably all may have gained and no one would be less for it. By all means take none of what has been objectively proven at merely my statement of it, or at the statements of others who have also proven these facts, instead apply the rules of reason, and compare the statements of facts to reality. Where these statements match reality, we know them to be true. Where reality differs with your desired, but completely unfounded proclamations, it is necessarily the desired proclamations that are in error, for reality cannot be in error.

Seek independent confirmation. Acquire the knowledge of reason, of critical thought and critical examination.

And the same reminder I have made previously:

From the etiquette section: <blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
No Ad Homonym's
If I were to say, "you are a moron, therefore your views are wrong", that would be an ad hominem. Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. It doesn't help arguments, and it's not tolerated. Other forms of personal attacks should also be reported-just use the 'report' button within the suspected post.

Be Aware of Logical Fallacies: Logical Fallacies<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

koi · Mar 3, 2004, 12:09 pm

Lightbearer has done nothing but state and re-state proven facts.

We do not have a choice to pay taxes, if we do not, we'll be punished. This would be called "cohersion" or the illicit influencing of a desiscion through threat of retribution.

This having been stated, tax=theft becomes a clear cut case that can be related to the "thug" example.

Even if I agreed that taxes went to a good cause they would still be theft. No choice is given to those who may feel adversly to the tax. So long as a SINGLE individual feels that the tax is unjust and that they have NO choice in paying the tax, it will remain as theft.

How is this not understood? I have yet to see a single example or reason to why/how tax is not theft.

Mia, you attack Lightbearer and claim he forces his opinion down people's throats. I disagree, he states logical facts backing them up with conclusive evidence and rational reasoning. He is not arguing an opinion, he is bringing facts to light (pardon the pun)

If you truly believe that my being forced to pay taxes, even though I think they are injust and I am being forced to by threat of judicial retribution, PROVE it. don't just say "I agree with taxes and it's my opinion and you can't change it" tell me WHY and HOW your opinion possibly applys to me?

Mathieu · Mar 3, 2004, 12:49 pm

That's not what I said. Read again the thread. You are only blindly opposing anything I will because it is me. I have no more time to spend to speak in the void with you.

Mar 3, 2004, 01:16 pm

Mathieu,

What do you claim is not what you said? I would gladly point to the post in which you stated each of the points I attributed to you. However in this latest post you need only look to your immediately previous post to find the statements of yours to which I refer.

LB

Anniee · Mar 3, 2004, 01:57 pm

Koi I just wanted to say I enjoy reading your posts. :)

koi · Mar 3, 2004, 02:55 pm

thank you

koi · Mar 3, 2004, 03:08 pm

since your only arugement seems to be 'go back and read the thread... fine.

I'll catagorize your main arguements to make it easier.

Argument One "If you don't like it, leave"
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
If you are not willing to pay tax you can leave your country. You can say that if you are forced then it is a theft, but you can't declare the same for everyone who pay tax in this world, it is only your personal case. It only rely on your political stance and nothing more.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
That is a totally distorted comparaison.You comparison with mafia is totally out of context and bring nothin as arguments. Yes you have a choice , you can leave your country . And no it does not constitute a theft If i am willingly paying tax to receive a service in exchange .<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You rely on this argument no leass than three separate times.

Argument Two: I benifit from paying taxes, so it's ok that you don't like them

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
No I am saying that if there is a general consensus that the governement is there to serve the citizens, and if those citizen are willingly paying tax to maintain this governement. Then no theft occured.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
I never saw this , so call irrefutable proof... I will repeat again. I pay tax, I get benifit form it, there no theft in my impression. It is as simple as that, You can write the bible on a grain of rice, you have still not ruled out this . It is simple.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
Absolutely not, you claim it is theft because I have not control in money. I answer that if I'm willing to pay tax, I also get the right to vote and participate to political processus in my country. That is how I control how my money is paid .

You can't decide for me if I agree to that or not.

Hence tax=theft is only your opinion.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
They are deprived only if they beleive tax=theft, else, there is no theft as there is no one to claim theft , no ?

So the only one who can say that tax=theft are the ones who consider it like that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

There. now that we have put your two arguements into proper perspective we can refute them. except that they refutre themselves as nonsensical and unviable. Come back when you have PROOF and FACT. not "if you don't like it leave" that's a cop-out answer.

Mathieu · Mar 3, 2004, 04:48 pm

You still can't say i'm being theft if I agree to pay my tax, willingly.
Whatever arguments your bring does not make that less true. You can say you ar rob when YOU pay tax, but you can't say the same for me . Whatever the argument you bring. There is no theft is there is no victims. Hence, it is your opinion , not a fact.

If it is still not enough clear for you, well, I won't spend more time to make you understand something you can't understand.

On that, not like some people here, I have a life. If you have still time to loose gloating, go, I certainly have more important things to do than trying to show something to a blind man.

Mar 3, 2004, 04:54 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You still can't say i'm being theft if I agree to pay my tax, willingly. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

No one is making this strawman argument. What many of us have noted that is since you have no choice, your level of pleasure in having your property seized is entierly irrelevent to the nature of the action. But you continue to simply ignore this fact.

BTW nice insults, but they leave me with a question I have asked previously: what is it that scares you so much about reality and reason?

Mia · Mar 3, 2004, 05:06 pm

Someone please tell me the society that is currently living in a system with no government and doing well with that.

Mar 3, 2004, 05:23 pm

LOL!. So might makes right eh, Mia?

Mia · Mar 3, 2004, 05:44 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)
LOL!. So might makes right eh, Mia?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Did I say that? Uh, no. Soem of you have this fantastic idea about how things really should be run. I'm asking a simple question none of you will answer: Is there a country that has adopted this oh-so-obviously correct way of doing things?

Is there a people like you who have made it into reality instead of just talk?

Mar 3, 2004, 06:09 pm

Many of us live by principles... BTW nice avoidance of the issues.. The tactic you are employing is known as a red herring..

Mar 3, 2004, 01:24 am	#82 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) There not much on wich we agree. If someone was ever able to show me that tax necesarly equals theft in every case, then I'll be happy it is this way .<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> THis is a blatantly false claim Mathieu. You in fact have been shown that this is necessarily the case, and you have as of yet been completely unable to offer any semblence of a reasoned argument which calls any aspect of this into doubt, much less refutes it. That you do not like the nature of reality, does not change reality. So whether or not you are willing to accept the methodology that has given us all knowledge, and is the foundation upon which philosophy and its subset which is science is based, is completely irrelevent. You have been shown, but you simply ignore the proof choosing instead to offer insults, false assertions, personal attacks, and red herrings. BTW as much as you may hate it all of the above is absolutely objectively verifiable..

Mar 3, 2004, 03:31 am	#85 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Just look at the screen name and you can see you won't get anywhere. "Lightbearer" I love people who shove their opinions down others throats by calling them "facts" "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 3, 2004, 10:13 am	#88 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Mia and Mathieu, I have to laugh at both of you for this latest pathetic attempt to mischaracterize all of the objective refutations of your claims as mere opinion, and as somehow an ego trip. I have been explicit that NONE of this depends on me as a person, or in fact on any individual. I have encouraged you to employ reason, to seek out evidence, to find any error that has been made in the arguments give, but thus far all you both have offered has been insults and personal attacks. What is it that scares you so very much? There is no gloating here, I do not care one whit about your abilites or accomplishments and how they compare to any other person, including myself. If either of you have behaved civilly, honestly, or reasonably all may have gained and no one would be less for it. By all means take none of what has been objectively proven at merely my statement of it, or at the statements of others who have also proven these facts, instead apply the rules of reason, and compare the statements of facts to reality. Where these statements match reality, we know them to be true. Where reality differs with your desired, but completely unfounded proclamations, it is necessarily the desired proclamations that are in error, for reality cannot be in error. Seek independent confirmation. Acquire the knowledge of reason, of critical thought and critical examination. And the same reminder I have made previously: From the etiquette section: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by No Ad Homonym's If I were to say, "you are a moron, therefore your views are wrong", that would be an ad hominem. Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. It doesn't help arguments, and it's not tolerated. Other forms of personal attacks should also be reported-just use the 'report' button within the suspected post. Be Aware of Logical Fallacies: Logical Fallacies<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Mar 3, 2004, 12:09 pm	#89 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	Lightbearer has done nothing but state and re-state proven facts. We do not have a choice to pay taxes, if we do not, we'll be punished. This would be called "cohersion" or the illicit influencing of a desiscion through threat of retribution. This having been stated, tax=theft becomes a clear cut case that can be related to the "thug" example. Even if I agreed that taxes went to a good cause they would still be theft. No choice is given to those who may feel adversly to the tax. So long as a SINGLE individual feels that the tax is unjust and that they have NO choice in paying the tax, it will remain as theft. How is this not understood? I have yet to see a single example or reason to why/how tax is not theft. Mia, you attack Lightbearer and claim he forces his opinion down people's throats. I disagree, he states logical facts backing them up with conclusive evidence and rational reasoning. He is not arguing an opinion, he is bringing facts to light (pardon the pun) If you truly believe that my being forced to pay taxes, even though I think they are injust and I am being forced to by threat of judicial retribution, PROVE it. don't just say "I agree with taxes and it's my opinion and you can't change it" tell me WHY and HOW your opinion possibly applys to me? "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 3, 2004, 01:57 pm	#92 (permalink) (top)
Anniee Mr. Queen Posts: 231	Koi I just wanted to say I enjoy reading your posts. :) Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest. Mohandas Gandhi

Mar 3, 2004, 01:11 am	#81 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Well freedom is only what the length of the rope let us do . But if he accept to be in the room, he also accept the length of his rope . We are never entirely free. You can stop to breath, but I do not recommend it to you However , no onw will argue that this limit to you r liberty of choice constitute coercition . Maybe an asthmatic or someone suffering from emphysema will find that cruel. But most people don't see it as a limit to their freedom. How important is it that it must be a True choice ? What if , close or open , the man already ruled out that leaving the room does not constitute a viable option ? Is it then important that he is able to do the choice or not ? Isn't that accesory ?

Mar 3, 2004, 01:27 am	#83 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Setting aside Mathieu's games and fallacies for a moment, there is a relevent point that deserves some clarification. The thread subject line is Tax=theft, and while it is true, and has been clearly and conclusively demonstrated that all taxation is necessarily theft, the relation is not one of identity as is signified by the "=." Some acts of theft are not taxation, in fact most acts of theft are not taxation, though all acts of taxation are necessarily theft as we have shown conclusively, employing sound reasoning and the facts of the matter. Perhaps this is splitting hairs but the point deserved to be made.

Mar 3, 2004, 01:37 am	#84 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	You have not shown nothing Lightbearer, you can gloat as much as you want,call everything wich does not come from your mouth fallacies, but that does not make you right. and I won't spend more time to try to make you understand something you are unable to understand . Call it ad hominem or whatever, I've stated my tought and you've not shown any shade of a refutation of it. Stop making noise like that in the void to satisfy your little ego.

Mar 3, 2004, 09:23 am	#86 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	What is the difference between a) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," and b) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," where 'a' is the Mafia and 'b' is the state? --Jackney Sneeb

Mar 3, 2004, 09:23 am	#87 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	What is the difference between a) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," and b) "Give us your money or we won't protect you from us," where 'a' is the Mafia and 'b' is the state? --Jackney Sneeb

Mar 3, 2004, 12:49 pm	#90 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	That's not what I said. Read again the thread. You are only blindly opposing anything I will because it is me. I have no more time to spend to speak in the void with you.

Mar 3, 2004, 01:16 pm	#91 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Mathieu, What do you claim is not what you said? I would gladly point to the post in which you stated each of the points I attributed to you. However in this latest post you need only look to your immediately previous post to find the statements of yours to which I refer. LB

Mar 3, 2004, 02:55 pm	#93 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	thank you "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 3, 2004, 03:08 pm	#94 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	since your only arugement seems to be 'go back and read the thread... fine. I'll catagorize your main arguements to make it easier. Argument One "If you don't like it, leave" </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) If you are not willing to pay tax you can leave your country. You can say that if you are forced then it is a theft, but you can't declare the same for everyone who pay tax in this world, it is only your personal case. It only rely on your political stance and nothing more.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) That is a totally distorted comparaison.You comparison with mafia is totally out of context and bring nothin as arguments. Yes you have a choice , you can leave your country . And no it does not constitute a theft If i am willingly paying tax to receive a service in exchange .<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You rely on this argument no leass than three separate times. Argument Two: I benifit from paying taxes, so it's ok that you don't like them </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) No I am saying that if there is a general consensus that the governement is there to serve the citizens, and if those citizen are willingly paying tax to maintain this governement. Then no theft occured.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) I never saw this , so call irrefutable proof... I will repeat again. I pay tax, I get benifit form it, there no theft in my impression. It is as simple as that, You can write the bible on a grain of rice, you have still not ruled out this . It is simple.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) Absolutely not, you claim it is theft because I have not control in money. I answer that if I'm willing to pay tax, I also get the right to vote and participate to political processus in my country. That is how I control how my money is paid . You can't decide for me if I agree to that or not. Hence tax=theft is only your opinion.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) They are deprived only if they beleive tax=theft, else, there is no theft as there is no one to claim theft , no ? So the only one who can say that tax=theft are the ones who consider it like that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There. now that we have put your two arguements into proper perspective we can refute them. except that they refutre themselves as nonsensical and unviable. Come back when you have PROOF and FACT. not "if you don't like it leave" that's a cop-out answer. "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 3, 2004, 04:48 pm	#95 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	You still can't say i'm being theft if I agree to pay my tax, willingly. Whatever arguments your bring does not make that less true. You can say you ar rob when YOU pay tax, but you can't say the same for me . Whatever the argument you bring. There is no theft is there is no victims. Hence, it is your opinion , not a fact. If it is still not enough clear for you, well, I won't spend more time to make you understand something you can't understand. On that, not like some people here, I have a life. If you have still time to loose gloating, go, I certainly have more important things to do than trying to show something to a blind man.

Mar 3, 2004, 04:54 pm	#96 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You still can't say i'm being theft if I agree to pay my tax, willingly. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> No one is making this strawman argument. What many of us have noted that is since you have no choice, your level of pleasure in having your property seized is entierly irrelevent to the nature of the action. But you continue to simply ignore this fact. BTW nice insults, but they leave me with a question I have asked previously: what is it that scares you so much about reality and reason?

Mar 3, 2004, 05:06 pm	#97 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Someone please tell me the society that is currently living in a system with no government and doing well with that. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 3, 2004, 05:23 pm	#98 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	LOL!. So might makes right eh, Mia?

Mar 3, 2004, 05:44 pm	#99 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,) LOL!. So might makes right eh, Mia?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Did I say that? Uh, no. Soem of you have this fantastic idea about how things really should be run. I'm asking a simple question none of you will answer: Is there a country that has adopted this oh-so-obviously correct way of doing things? Is there a people like you who have made it into reality instead of just talk? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 3, 2004, 06:09 pm	#100 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Many of us live by principles... BTW nice avoidance of the issues.. The tactic you are employing is known as a red herring..