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Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 11:31 pm

They are deprived only if they beleive tax=theft, else, there is no theft as there is no one to claim theft , no ?

So the only one who can say that tax=theft are the ones who consider it like that.

koi · Mar 1, 2004, 11:32 pm

and we justly consider it so... making your entire point moot

Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 11:37 pm

Absolutely not, you claim it is theft because I have not control in money. I answer that if I'm willing to pay tax, I also get the right to vote and participate to political processus in my country. That is how I control how my money is paid .

You can't decide for me if I agree to that or not.

Hence tax=theft is only your opinion.

koi · Mar 1, 2004, 11:42 pm

by your own arguement, tax is only theft if a person belives it to be.
-I- believe it to be. This makes it theft. by your own arguement if you will.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:49 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
They are deprived only if they beleive tax=theft, else, there is no theft as there is no one to claim theft , no ?

So the only one who can say that tax=theft are the ones who consider it like that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
\
You make the error of putting the cart before the horse.

One side is starting with an asusmption which is identical to its conclusion (therefore logically unsound).

The other is pointing out that no matter what the non-arbitrary description of theft, taxation is always a central case of theft. In other words the starting point in this case is not ideology, or the assumption which is to be the conclusion, but instead is truth and reason. Start with observation of the world then see what follows. By following this method we have learned of the nature of the world in the sciences, so why would we abandon it here merely because reality does not match the ideology of the theft is good crowd?

Has anyone noticed that despite the fact that every approach taken by the theft is good crowd has been soundly and resoundingly refuted, no defender of theft has yet to even address the refutations or offer a non-arbitrary or otherwise reasonable argument?

It appears that there are two standards being employed. One side is appealing to reason and reality, the other to ideology even in the face of direct contradiction to reality as well as internal contradictions.

Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 11:49 pm

Well that's your opinion, and mine is different. There is no fact in this affirmation.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:53 pm

Mathieu,

If you are responding to Koi, then you are being inconsistent in your claims, thus demonstrating that those claims are false and self-defeating. This means that you assertion that theft is not theft, must also be false. That IS a matter of fact.. :)

If you are commenting on my references to reality and reason.. well I know no other common ground upon which any of us can hope to communicate or determine truth.

Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 11:59 pm

If I follow the real word, What I see is that people are willing to pay tax because of the service they get, call it theft if you like, it does not appear like that to me . That what you base your belief on, not me.
In the real world there is no working libertarian state and there no working example of a working one. Our governement are not distinct of people and they are based on a consensus of the majority . If you know a better way to form a governement, just tell me, if you think there should be no state, then go in Minarchy thread and have fun.

Mathieu · Mar 2, 2004, 12:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
This means that you assertion that theft is not theft, must also be false.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

It is you who drop into logical fallacy, If I do not consider it as a theft , who are to to tell me what I do with my money ? If I give tools to my employees, this is not theft, as I am willingly giving them, and they give me back increased productivity ...

Mar 2, 2004, 12:38 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
If I follow the real word, What I see is that people are willing to pay tax because of the service they get, call it theft if you like, it does not appear like that to me . That what you base your belief on, not me. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You continue to ignore the fact that NO CHOICE EXISTS. You do not willingly give your money as others of US do to charities. Instead you are forced to do so upon threat of violence and imprisonment.

And I would ask you at this point ot please be honest. I do not merely call it theft, I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter what non-arbitrary description of theft you offer, taxation will necessarily be a central example. I would ask out of respect for truth, if not for the respect generally given in intellectual discussions, that you do not offer insult by pretending that this is simply a matter of "calling" it theft. If you have a means of PROVING that it taxation is not theft, then please offer it, but given that thus far nothing even remotely close to a proof, or even anything reasonable has been offered, I would ask that you be honest in your responses.

BTW your questions about a Libertarian government are merely red herrings. I never advocated any government, including an Libertarian one.

As to logical fallacies, I cited yours because the use of logical fallacies prevented your conclusions from being either dependable or reasonable. Noting logical fallacies is a common practice in honest civil intellectual discussions.

koi · Mar 2, 2004, 12:49 am

Ah Lightbringer, you bring a tear of libertarian joy to mine eyes.
kudos

Mathieu · Mar 2, 2004, 01:08 am

I never saw this , so call irrefutable proof... I will repeat again. I pay tax, I get benifit form it, there no theft in my impression. It is as simple as that, You can write the bible on a grain of rice, you have still not ruled out this . It is simple.

Mar 2, 2004, 01:32 am

Whether you ignore it or not, the fact that you do not have a choice necessitates that there is theft.

You claim to not have seen the proof, and actually I believe you but only because I believe that you have not read any of the post in repsonse to your proclamations.

You can pretend that the earth is flat, and hide your head in teh sand to protect this belief, but such bleiefs will never change reality.

Oh and though it is completely irrelevent, you have not shown that ANY benefit is received.

Also, why not address the subject honestly?
And why do you continue to pretend that everyone else accepts your rose colored vision of theft as a good thing? Why not at the very least ad mit that most people do not want to waste their money on violence, bureaucrats, politicians, and thw worst possible use of their property? Why not simply recognize that since no one has any choice inthe matter, since the property is seized against the will of every single tax payer, that this is necessarily theft? Why not address the refutations offered, as well as the very clear arguments offered? Why not offer an argument that is not chock full of logical fallacies?

Why have you not offered ANY non-arbitrary description of theft that does not necessitate that taxation is a clear example of theft?

Mathieu · Mar 2, 2004, 01:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
theft

\Theft\, n. [OE. thefte, AS. [thorn]i['e]f[eth]e, [thorn][=y]f[eth]e, [thorn]e['o]f[eth]e. See Thief.] 1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny.

Note: [u]To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious;[/u every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See Larceny, and the Note under Robbery.

2. The thing stolen. [R.]

If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, . . . he shall restore double. --Ex. xxii. 4.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Whether you ignore it or not, the fact that you do not have a choice necessitates that there is theft.

You claim to not have seen the proof, and actually I believe you but only because I believe that you have not read any of the post in repsonse to your proclamations.

You can pretend that the earth is flat, and hide your head in teh sand to protect this belief, but such bleiefs will never change reality.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Look at the dictionary definition ... I've read you post and answered them And i saw to proof of anything. You can pretend that tax=theft, and hide your head in the side to protect this belief, but such beliefs will never change reality.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Also, why not address the subject honestly?
And why do you continue to pretend that everyone else accepts your rose colored vision of theft as a good thing? Why not at the very least ad mit that most people do not want to waste their money on violence, bureaucrats, politicians, and thw worst possible use of their property? Why not simply recognize that since no one has any choice inthe matter, since the property is seized against the will of every single tax payer, that this is necessarily theft? Why not address the refutations offered, as well as the very clear arguments offered? Why not offer an argument that is not chock full of logical fallacies?

Why have you not offered ANY non-arbitrary description of theft that does not necessitate that taxation is a clear example of theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Nice appeal to emotion, nice try. When you attack me on logical fallacies, try to not fill you attack with those. Why do you continue to pretend that everyone accepts you black colored vision of tax?

Again, just see the definition below.

Poetic_Justice · Mar 2, 2004, 02:59 am

ok, so what is consent pray tell?

I consaent to paying taxes, correct, but under duress... If a mugger were to take a knife to my throat and demand my wallet, i would also consent, does this mean it is not theft?

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 04:27 am

Do you have a country that is a good model that works well without taxation?

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 04:41 am

I'm told that in Syria, ther are no taxes. Everything is owned by the goverment and profits from oil, etc. Services are given from this. But it's socialist. I'm sure you find issue with this too.

I am not well-educated on different forms of government in this aspect and how it works out in other countries.

Poetic_Justice · Mar 2, 2004, 04:46 am

I'm not debating about whether or not we should have taxes, I'm merely saying that taxation is theft. That's what this thread is about.

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 06:51 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Poetic_Justice,)
ok, so what is consent pray tell?

I consaent to paying taxes, correct, but under duress... If a mugger were to take a knife to my throat and demand my wallet, i would also consent, does this mean it is not theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your name looks familiar - have we spoken on another board?

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 06:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Poetic_Justice,)
I'm not debating about whether or not we should have taxes, I'm merely saying that taxation is theft. That's what this thread is about.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

OK - what's the alternative?

Mar 1, 2004, 11:32 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	and we justly consider it so... making your entire point moot "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 1, 2004, 11:42 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	by your own arguement, tax is only theft if a person belives it to be. -I- believe it to be. This makes it theft. by your own arguement if you will. "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 1, 2004, 11:49 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by They are deprived only if they beleive tax=theft, else, there is no theft as there is no one to claim theft , no ? So the only one who can say that tax=theft are the ones who consider it like that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> \ You make the error of putting the cart before the horse. One side is starting with an asusmption which is identical to its conclusion (therefore logically unsound). The other is pointing out that no matter what the non-arbitrary description of theft, taxation is always a central case of theft. In other words the starting point in this case is not ideology, or the assumption which is to be the conclusion, but instead is truth and reason. Start with observation of the world then see what follows. By following this method we have learned of the nature of the world in the sciences, so why would we abandon it here merely because reality does not match the ideology of the theft is good crowd? Has anyone noticed that despite the fact that every approach taken by the theft is good crowd has been soundly and resoundingly refuted, no defender of theft has yet to even address the refutations or offer a non-arbitrary or otherwise reasonable argument? It appears that there are two standards being employed. One side is appealing to reason and reality, the other to ideology even in the face of direct contradiction to reality as well as internal contradictions.

Mar 2, 2004, 12:02 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by This means that you assertion that theft is not theft, must also be false.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It is you who drop into logical fallacy, If I do not consider it as a theft , who are to to tell me what I do with my money ? If I give tools to my employees, this is not theft, as I am willingly giving them, and they give me back increased productivity ...

Mar 2, 2004, 12:38 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If I follow the real word, What I see is that people are willing to pay tax because of the service they get, call it theft if you like, it does not appear like that to me . That what you base your belief on, not me. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You continue to ignore the fact that NO CHOICE EXISTS. You do not willingly give your money as others of US do to charities. Instead you are forced to do so upon threat of violence and imprisonment. And I would ask you at this point ot please be honest. I do not merely call it theft, I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter what non-arbitrary description of theft you offer, taxation will necessarily be a central example. I would ask out of respect for truth, if not for the respect generally given in intellectual discussions, that you do not offer insult by pretending that this is simply a matter of "calling" it theft. If you have a means of PROVING that it taxation is not theft, then please offer it, but given that thus far nothing even remotely close to a proof, or even anything reasonable has been offered, I would ask that you be honest in your responses. BTW your questions about a Libertarian government are merely red herrings. I never advocated any government, including an Libertarian one. As to logical fallacies, I cited yours because the use of logical fallacies prevented your conclusions from being either dependable or reasonable. Noting logical fallacies is a common practice in honest civil intellectual discussions.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:31 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	They are deprived only if they beleive tax=theft, else, there is no theft as there is no one to claim theft , no ? So the only one who can say that tax=theft are the ones who consider it like that.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:37 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Absolutely not, you claim it is theft because I have not control in money. I answer that if I'm willing to pay tax, I also get the right to vote and participate to political processus in my country. That is how I control how my money is paid . You can't decide for me if I agree to that or not. Hence tax=theft is only your opinion.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:49 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Well that's your opinion, and mine is different. There is no fact in this affirmation.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:53 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Mathieu, If you are responding to Koi, then you are being inconsistent in your claims, thus demonstrating that those claims are false and self-defeating. This means that you assertion that theft is not theft, must also be false. That IS a matter of fact.. :) If you are commenting on my references to reality and reason.. well I know no other common ground upon which any of us can hope to communicate or determine truth.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:59 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	If I follow the real word, What I see is that people are willing to pay tax because of the service they get, call it theft if you like, it does not appear like that to me . That what you base your belief on, not me. In the real world there is no working libertarian state and there no working example of a working one. Our governement are not distinct of people and they are based on a consensus of the majority . If you know a better way to form a governement, just tell me, if you think there should be no state, then go in Minarchy thread and have fun.

Mar 2, 2004, 12:49 am	#31 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	Ah Lightbringer, you bring a tear of libertarian joy to mine eyes. kudos "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 2, 2004, 01:08 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	I never saw this , so call irrefutable proof... I will repeat again. I pay tax, I get benifit form it, there no theft in my impression. It is as simple as that, You can write the bible on a grain of rice, you have still not ruled out this . It is simple.

Mar 2, 2004, 01:32 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Whether you ignore it or not, the fact that you do not have a choice necessitates that there is theft. You claim to not have seen the proof, and actually I believe you but only because I believe that you have not read any of the post in repsonse to your proclamations. You can pretend that the earth is flat, and hide your head in teh sand to protect this belief, but such bleiefs will never change reality. Oh and though it is completely irrelevent, you have not shown that ANY benefit is received. Also, why not address the subject honestly? And why do you continue to pretend that everyone else accepts your rose colored vision of theft as a good thing? Why not at the very least ad mit that most people do not want to waste their money on violence, bureaucrats, politicians, and thw worst possible use of their property? Why not simply recognize that since no one has any choice inthe matter, since the property is seized against the will of every single tax payer, that this is necessarily theft? Why not address the refutations offered, as well as the very clear arguments offered? Why not offer an argument that is not chock full of logical fallacies? Why have you not offered ANY non-arbitrary description of theft that does not necessitate that taxation is a clear example of theft?

Mar 2, 2004, 01:52 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by theft \Theft\, n. [OE. thefte, AS. [thorn]i['e]f[eth]e, [thorn][=y]f[eth]e, [thorn]e['o]f[eth]e. See Thief.] 1. (Law) The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same; larceny. Note: [u]To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious;[/u every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See Larceny, and the Note under Robbery. 2. The thing stolen. [R.] If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, . . . he shall restore double. --Ex. xxii. 4. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Whether you ignore it or not, the fact that you do not have a choice necessitates that there is theft. You claim to not have seen the proof, and actually I believe you but only because I believe that you have not read any of the post in repsonse to your proclamations. You can pretend that the earth is flat, and hide your head in teh sand to protect this belief, but such bleiefs will never change reality. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Look at the dictionary definition ... I've read you post and answered them And i saw to proof of anything. You can pretend that tax=theft, and hide your head in the side to protect this belief, but such beliefs will never change reality. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Also, why not address the subject honestly? And why do you continue to pretend that everyone else accepts your rose colored vision of theft as a good thing? Why not at the very least ad mit that most people do not want to waste their money on violence, bureaucrats, politicians, and thw worst possible use of their property? Why not simply recognize that since no one has any choice inthe matter, since the property is seized against the will of every single tax payer, that this is necessarily theft? Why not address the refutations offered, as well as the very clear arguments offered? Why not offer an argument that is not chock full of logical fallacies? Why have you not offered ANY non-arbitrary description of theft that does not necessitate that taxation is a clear example of theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Nice appeal to emotion, nice try. When you attack me on logical fallacies, try to not fill you attack with those. Why do you continue to pretend that everyone accepts you black colored vision of tax? Again, just see the definition below.

Mar 2, 2004, 02:59 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	ok, so what is consent pray tell? I consaent to paying taxes, correct, but under duress... If a mugger were to take a knife to my throat and demand my wallet, i would also consent, does this mean it is not theft?

Mar 2, 2004, 04:27 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Do you have a country that is a good model that works well without taxation? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 04:41 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I'm told that in Syria, ther are no taxes. Everything is owned by the goverment and profits from oil, etc. Services are given from this. But it's socialist. I'm sure you find issue with this too. I am not well-educated on different forms of government in this aspect and how it works out in other countries. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 04:46 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	I'm not debating about whether or not we should have taxes, I'm merely saying that taxation is theft. That's what this thread is about.

Mar 2, 2004, 06:51 am	#39 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Poetic_Justice,) ok, so what is consent pray tell? I consaent to paying taxes, correct, but under duress... If a mugger were to take a knife to my throat and demand my wallet, i would also consent, does this mean it is not theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your name looks familiar - have we spoken on another board? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 06:52 am	#40 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Poetic_Justice,) I'm not debating about whether or not we should have taxes, I'm merely saying that taxation is theft. That's what this thread is about.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> OK - what's the alternative? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali