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geo1671 · Feb 29, 2004, 07:41 am

:( Recall-- After being elected,Bush authorized vast sums of pay increases to the military.Has anyone wondered why and if it had been to grease the way into the Iraq war.This war was planned long time before the republicans got into office.Don't believe it--you must be a sap?
Why is their no revolt-cause the pay is good,-you saps at home are working for peanuts at wal-mart or Big Mac!
'''''"New recruits now earn 30% more than full-time civilian workers their age. The most recent data reveals the average 40-year old full-time American worker earns $32,240 a year, while the typical 40-year old enlisted man (an E-7 with 22 years) earns nearly twice as much $59,956 in Regular Military Compensation, which excludes bonuses for deployments and reenlistments. A typical 40-year old officer (O-5 with 18 years) earns an amazing $106,992 a year, which is 228% more than Americans with bachelor's degrees, who average just $46,852, and even 181% more than Americans with advanced college degrees, who average $58,992. Therefore, it is no surprise that military morale is high when senior enlisted men make more than Americans with advanced degrees, enjoy 42 paid days of vacation/holidays each year (compared to 13 days for the average American), plus the option to retire after just 20 years without contributing a single penny to a retirement fund." :rolleyes:

Impenitent · Feb 29, 2004, 11:20 am

and if the military didn't exist, you'd be dead...

or are you under the impression that other nations wouldn't invade and conquer us?

how much are you willing to pay to keep you free and safe?

suck up to bush? sure the pay is good but the hazards are a bitch...

Mr.Vicchio · Feb 29, 2004, 10:47 pm

As a member of the Armed Forces, I gotta say, you are clueless.

We don't join for the money, we don't stay for the pay, we don't die because someone is gonn apay us a few extra dollars more.

Get a clue.

mlingley · Feb 29, 2004, 10:57 pm

I know most of my friends who have joined the military did it to pay for college. I'm sure they were also proud to say that they support their country. I support my country, but I don't support our leaders. They are all corrupt in one way or another.

What I don't like about Bush is the way he uses the military for his political gains. Everytime he's on the news anymore he is giving a speech in front of the armed service memebers who are all so enthuastically supportive of the president. It seems to me he's using American patriotism for he's own re-election campaign. And the military-industrial complex marches on.

Mr.Vicchio · Mar 1, 2004, 04:54 am

You want to know something, most of those "for the college money" people last one term. And thank goodness. They are the ones that run when there is a fire on your ship, the ones that are only for "ME ME ME" and I wish you would have to serve 2 terms to get the GI Bill personally.

That being said, ask most any veteren which of the last 3 presidents they felt "used them for political gains" And the name Bush won't be one of them.

antiwar · Mar 3, 2004, 09:58 pm

And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.

Mr.Vicchio · Mar 4, 2004, 05:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antiwar,)
And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Interesting comming from a guy with a canadian flag telling us how the military feels about the thanksgiving photo op.

Lets see it ranges from those I have asked personally, "Gee that was pretty freaking cool." to "Can't believe he had the balls to pull that off, he gets it don't he?"

Where you see "political gain" we see a President that really DOES care about the military, really cares about US. He risked a LOT flying into a country that is in serious unrest, to meet with the guys on the ground, to share some turkey not in the safety of the white house, but in "zone" where there was a real risk of his being attacked and killed.

Haik · Mar 4, 2004, 08:38 am

Don't forget that a part of the 'patriotism' is a result of the brainwashing that comes with joining the armed forces.

ProjectMagnus · Mar 4, 2004, 09:20 am

pacifism is another form of cowardice. Only liberal elitists and ignorant bleeding hearts blame the military for the world's ills. It's odd that anarchists trust foriegn dictators more than they trust President Bush. Try blogging or protesting in Iran, Syria, or North Korea. Get back to us and praise your success.

Samildanach · Mar 4, 2004, 10:56 am

Bush is simply doing what politicians do. Hes buying votes and currying favour. If you are not doing it with one set of voters then you have to do it with another large demographic.
He doesn't care about the military any more than you care where your next meal is coming from. He just wants to buy your votes and pull the wool over your eyes that he cares and he seems to be doing an excellent job......votes votes votes thats what its all about.

koi · Mar 4, 2004, 12:07 pm

I've had the pleasure and honor of talking to several enlisten men in both american and canadian forces. These would include an american infantry officer, an american combat medic, a former american naval intell/interpreter and a canadian doctor who is part of the national guard.
These men and women are all very intelligent, I value their opinions and ideas highly.
All of them have said very much the same as the enlisted personnel here. They are not in it for the pay, nor are they in it to serv Bush. They're doing it for a love of country and a sense of duty and honor.
the infantryman liked to stress the feeling of comraderie felt between himself and his fellow soldiers. "the guys next to you in the trench are the only people you're fighting for when the shit hits the fan"
I may be against military action, all aggression in fact, bu I am not so blind as to say they are in any way un-nessisary at this point in time. Not until the world becomes a perfect utopia (riiiight) will we be able to lay down our arms. Until then, I give my support to the men and women who stand up for their beliefs, their countries and the guy next to them.

antiwar · Mar 4, 2004, 07:40 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antiwar,)
And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Interesting comming from a guy with a canadian flag telling us how the military feels about the thanksgiving photo op.

Lets see it ranges from those I have asked personally, "Gee that was pretty freaking cool." to "Can't believe he had the balls to pull that off, he gets it don't he?"

Where you see "political gain" we see a President that really DOES care about the military, really cares about US. He risked a LOT flying into a country that is in serious unrest, to meet with the guys on the ground, to share some turkey not in the safety of the white house, but in "zone" where there was a real risk of his being attacked and killed.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Since I'm Canadian, I couldn't possibly ask anyone in the U.S. military personally what they felt about it?

well here's what I've been told.

"By the way, the Thanksgiving photo-op at the airport was only open to pro-Bush soldiers. We were screened unknowingly about four days before he showed up in secret. We didn’t know he was coming, but looking back, all the questions we were asked were designed to weed out the antiwar soldiers."

"They had a tough time finding the right ones. As a matter of fact, my company and some Marines who talked loudly about Bush were sent to Tikrit the day before Thanksgiving for “security detail.”

Mr.Vicchio · Mar 4, 2004, 09:25 pm

Screened? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Sorry still laughing...

Still laughing...

Okay almost done.

one of the Corpmen here at the base has a photo of him with Bush at the "photo op" and he TOLD the president he was against the war, told him he disagreed, and really didn't like him. He took the picture so he would have proof.

You know what the President said?

"Thats what makes America great, you have the right to say that to me, think about those people we just freed, had they tried that to Saddam."

You should consider that.

antiwar · Mar 4, 2004, 10:14 pm

it seems we both have provided comedic material for the other.

Mia · Mar 5, 2004, 05:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (geo1671,)
:( Recall-- After being elected,Bush authorized vast sums of pay increases to the military.Has anyone wondered why and if it had been to grease the way into the Iraq war.This war was planned long time before the republicans got into office.Don't believe it--you must be a sap?
Why is their no revolt-cause the pay is good,-you saps at home are working for peanuts at wal-mart or Big Mac!
'''''"New recruits now earn 30% more than full-time civilian workers their age. The most recent data reveals the average 40-year old full-time American worker earns $32,240 a year, while the typical 40-year old enlisted man (an E-7 with 22 years) earns nearly twice as much $59,956 in Regular Military Compensation, which excludes bonuses for deployments and reenlistments. A typical 40-year old officer (O-5 with 18 years) earns an amazing $106,992 a year, which is 228% more than Americans with bachelor's degrees, who average just $46,852, and even 181% more than Americans with advanced college degrees, who average $58,992. Therefore, it is no surprise that military morale is high when senior enlisted men make more than Americans with advanced degrees, enjoy 42 paid days of vacation/holidays each year (compared to 13 days for the average American), plus the option to retire after just 20 years without contributing a single penny to a retirement fund." :rolleyes:<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh, I agree with you. People with college degrees definitely deserve more money than people who dedicate their lives to keeping us as safe as possible, called upon to give their own lives for ours at any given time.

Did you also research the salaries of those who haven't managed to survive so long in the military? The first 5 years, even ten years of their career?

Take a peek at how our vets are treated, too. The ones who went and fought for use and got hurt in the process. It's deplorable!

Mia · Mar 5, 2004, 05:07 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antiwar,)
And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Interesting comming from a guy with a canadian flag telling us how the military feels about the thanksgiving photo op.

Lets see it ranges from those I have asked personally, "Gee that was pretty freaking cool." to "Can't believe he had the balls to pull that off, he gets it don't he?"

Where you see "political gain" we see a President that really DOES care about the military, really cares about US. He risked a LOT flying into a country that is in serious unrest, to meet with the guys on the ground, to share some turkey not in the safety of the white house, but in "zone" where there was a real risk of his being attacked and killed.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

OK - so if he cares so much about them, why did he close their hospitals and cut their benefits? How nice he took a few hours for those who will give limbs or lives and get treated like welfare recipients when they come home.

I agree it was small risk to go there - but it wasn't because he cared - it was good for his image, which needed some bolstering.

Mia · Mar 5, 2004, 05:12 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,)
Screened? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Sorry still laughing...

Still laughing...

Okay almost done.

one of the Corpmen here at the base has a photo of him with Bush at the "photo op" and he TOLD the president he was against the war, told him he disagreed, and really didn't like him. He took the picture so he would have proof.

You know what the President said?

"Thats what makes America great, you have the right to say that to me, think about those people we just freed, had they tried that to Saddam."

You should consider that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

And that canned, self-serving response wasn't planned? Seems to me that fits in with the screening - he let that guy through on purpose so he could promote his "look how great our democracy is" thing.

castille · Mar 5, 2004, 05:52 am

Every pacifist who has never joined the army has a billion opinions about the army.

None of them are true.

Feb 29, 2004, 11:20 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	and if the military didn't exist, you'd be dead... or are you under the impression that other nations wouldn't invade and conquer us? how much are you willing to pay to keep you free and safe? suck up to bush? sure the pay is good but the hazards are a bitch... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 29, 2004, 10:47 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	As a member of the Armed Forces, I gotta say, you are clueless. We don't join for the money, we don't stay for the pay, we don't die because someone is gonn apay us a few extra dollars more. Get a clue. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Mar 1, 2004, 04:54 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	You want to know something, most of those "for the college money" people last one term. And thank goodness. They are the ones that run when there is a fire on your ship, the ones that are only for "ME ME ME" and I wish you would have to serve 2 terms to get the GI Bill personally. That being said, ask most any veteren which of the last 3 presidents they felt "used them for political gains" And the name Bush won't be one of them. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Mar 3, 2004, 09:58 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
antiwar Sedimentary Rock Location: BC, Canada Posts: 3	And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op. http://www.thevoiceexchange.com

Mar 4, 2004, 05:40 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antiwar,) And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Interesting comming from a guy with a canadian flag telling us how the military feels about the thanksgiving photo op. Lets see it ranges from those I have asked personally, "Gee that was pretty freaking cool." to "Can't believe he had the balls to pull that off, he gets it don't he?" Where you see "political gain" we see a President that really DOES care about the military, really cares about US. He risked a LOT flying into a country that is in serious unrest, to meet with the guys on the ground, to share some turkey not in the safety of the white house, but in "zone" where there was a real risk of his being attacked and killed. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Feb 29, 2004, 07:41 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
geo1671 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 5	:( Recall-- After being elected,Bush authorized vast sums of pay increases to the military.Has anyone wondered why and if it had been to grease the way into the Iraq war.This war was planned long time before the republicans got into office.Don't believe it--you must be a sap? Why is their no revolt-cause the pay is good,-you saps at home are working for peanuts at wal-mart or Big Mac! '''''"New recruits now earn 30% more than full-time civilian workers their age. The most recent data reveals the average 40-year old full-time American worker earns $32,240 a year, while the typical 40-year old enlisted man (an E-7 with 22 years) earns nearly twice as much $59,956 in Regular Military Compensation, which excludes bonuses for deployments and reenlistments. A typical 40-year old officer (O-5 with 18 years) earns an amazing $106,992 a year, which is 228% more than Americans with bachelor's degrees, who average just $46,852, and even 181% more than Americans with advanced college degrees, who average $58,992. Therefore, it is no surprise that military morale is high when senior enlisted men make more than Americans with advanced degrees, enjoy 42 paid days of vacation/holidays each year (compared to 13 days for the average American), plus the option to retire after just 20 years without contributing a single penny to a retirement fund." :rolleyes:

Feb 29, 2004, 10:57 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	I know most of my friends who have joined the military did it to pay for college. I'm sure they were also proud to say that they support their country. I support my country, but I don't support our leaders. They are all corrupt in one way or another. What I don't like about Bush is the way he uses the military for his political gains. Everytime he's on the news anymore he is giving a speech in front of the armed service memebers who are all so enthuastically supportive of the president. It seems to me he's using American patriotism for he's own re-election campaign. And the military-industrial complex marches on.

Mar 4, 2004, 08:38 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Haik Molten Ash Posts: 64	Don't forget that a part of the 'patriotism' is a result of the brainwashing that comes with joining the armed forces.

Mar 4, 2004, 09:20 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
ProjectMagnus Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	pacifism is another form of cowardice. Only liberal elitists and ignorant bleeding hearts blame the military for the world's ills. It's odd that anarchists trust foriegn dictators more than they trust President Bush. Try blogging or protesting in Iran, Syria, or North Korea. Get back to us and praise your success. [b][FONT=Optima][SIZE=7][COLOR=blue]

Mar 4, 2004, 10:56 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Bush is simply doing what politicians do. Hes buying votes and currying favour. If you are not doing it with one set of voters then you have to do it with another large demographic. He doesn't care about the military any more than you care where your next meal is coming from. He just wants to buy your votes and pull the wool over your eyes that he cares and he seems to be doing an excellent job......votes votes votes thats what its all about. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Mar 4, 2004, 12:07 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	I've had the pleasure and honor of talking to several enlisten men in both american and canadian forces. These would include an american infantry officer, an american combat medic, a former american naval intell/interpreter and a canadian doctor who is part of the national guard. These men and women are all very intelligent, I value their opinions and ideas highly. All of them have said very much the same as the enlisted personnel here. They are not in it for the pay, nor are they in it to serv Bush. They're doing it for a love of country and a sense of duty and honor. the infantryman liked to stress the feeling of comraderie felt between himself and his fellow soldiers. "the guys next to you in the trench are the only people you're fighting for when the shit hits the fan" I may be against military action, all aggression in fact, bu I am not so blind as to say they are in any way un-nessisary at this point in time. Not until the world becomes a perfect utopia (riiiight) will we be able to lay down our arms. Until then, I give my support to the men and women who stand up for their beliefs, their countries and the guy next to them. "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Mar 4, 2004, 07:40 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
antiwar Sedimentary Rock Location: BC, Canada Posts: 3	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antiwar,) And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Interesting comming from a guy with a canadian flag telling us how the military feels about the thanksgiving photo op. Lets see it ranges from those I have asked personally, "Gee that was pretty freaking cool." to "Can't believe he had the balls to pull that off, he gets it don't he?" Where you see "political gain" we see a President that really DOES care about the military, really cares about US. He risked a LOT flying into a country that is in serious unrest, to meet with the guys on the ground, to share some turkey not in the safety of the white house, but in "zone" where there was a real risk of his being attacked and killed.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Since I'm Canadian, I couldn't possibly ask anyone in the U.S. military personally what they felt about it? well here's what I've been told. "By the way, the Thanksgiving photo-op at the airport was only open to pro-Bush soldiers. We were screened unknowingly about four days before he showed up in secret. We didn’t know he was coming, but looking back, all the questions we were asked were designed to weed out the antiwar soldiers." "They had a tough time finding the right ones. As a matter of fact, my company and some Marines who talked loudly about Bush were sent to Tikrit the day before Thanksgiving for “security detail.” http://www.thevoiceexchange.com

Mar 4, 2004, 09:25 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Screened? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Sorry still laughing... Still laughing... Okay almost done. one of the Corpmen here at the base has a photo of him with Bush at the "photo op" and he TOLD the president he was against the war, told him he disagreed, and really didn't like him. He took the picture so he would have proof. You know what the President said? "Thats what makes America great, you have the right to say that to me, think about those people we just freed, had they tried that to Saddam." You should consider that. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Mar 4, 2004, 10:14 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
antiwar Sedimentary Rock Location: BC, Canada Posts: 3	it seems we both have provided comedic material for the other. http://www.thevoiceexchange.com

Mar 5, 2004, 05:03 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (geo1671,) :( Recall-- After being elected,Bush authorized vast sums of pay increases to the military.Has anyone wondered why and if it had been to grease the way into the Iraq war.This war was planned long time before the republicans got into office.Don't believe it--you must be a sap? Why is their no revolt-cause the pay is good,-you saps at home are working for peanuts at wal-mart or Big Mac! '''''"New recruits now earn 30% more than full-time civilian workers their age. The most recent data reveals the average 40-year old full-time American worker earns $32,240 a year, while the typical 40-year old enlisted man (an E-7 with 22 years) earns nearly twice as much $59,956 in Regular Military Compensation, which excludes bonuses for deployments and reenlistments. A typical 40-year old officer (O-5 with 18 years) earns an amazing $106,992 a year, which is 228% more than Americans with bachelor's degrees, who average just $46,852, and even 181% more than Americans with advanced college degrees, who average $58,992. Therefore, it is no surprise that military morale is high when senior enlisted men make more than Americans with advanced degrees, enjoy 42 paid days of vacation/holidays each year (compared to 13 days for the average American), plus the option to retire after just 20 years without contributing a single penny to a retirement fund." :rolleyes:<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh, I agree with you. People with college degrees definitely deserve more money than people who dedicate their lives to keeping us as safe as possible, called upon to give their own lives for ours at any given time. Did you also research the salaries of those who haven't managed to survive so long in the military? The first 5 years, even ten years of their career? Take a peek at how our vets are treated, too. The ones who went and fought for use and got hurt in the process. It's deplorable! "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 5, 2004, 05:07 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (antiwar,) And you could also ask current soliders about the screening process for the Thanksgiving photo-op.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Interesting comming from a guy with a canadian flag telling us how the military feels about the thanksgiving photo op. Lets see it ranges from those I have asked personally, "Gee that was pretty freaking cool." to "Can't believe he had the balls to pull that off, he gets it don't he?" Where you see "political gain" we see a President that really DOES care about the military, really cares about US. He risked a LOT flying into a country that is in serious unrest, to meet with the guys on the ground, to share some turkey not in the safety of the white house, but in "zone" where there was a real risk of his being attacked and killed.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> OK - so if he cares so much about them, why did he close their hospitals and cut their benefits? How nice he took a few hours for those who will give limbs or lives and get treated like welfare recipients when they come home. I agree it was small risk to go there - but it wasn't because he cared - it was good for his image, which needed some bolstering. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 5, 2004, 05:12 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mr.Vicchio,) Screened? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Sorry still laughing... Still laughing... Okay almost done. one of the Corpmen here at the base has a photo of him with Bush at the "photo op" and he TOLD the president he was against the war, told him he disagreed, and really didn't like him. He took the picture so he would have proof. You know what the President said? "Thats what makes America great, you have the right to say that to me, think about those people we just freed, had they tried that to Saddam." You should consider that.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> And that canned, self-serving response wasn't planned? Seems to me that fits in with the screening - he let that guy through on purpose so he could promote his "look how great our democracy is" thing. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 5, 2004, 05:52 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Every pacifist who has never joined the army has a billion opinions about the army. None of them are true. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.