Tyranny of Fairness?

[Packratt]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Leopard,)
Packratt,

how do you define 'indentured servitude'? If you mean slavery (defined as forcing another to serve you) then I would say that libertarians strictly DO NOT believe in it. If you mean that a person should be allowed to sell their services as they see fit for a price they agree to, then I would say 'yes' - being an employee is an example of this.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

You sound like a fricken lawyer, hey, Bill Clinton, what is the definition of inhale? Call it whatever you want, it's indentured servitude and your little slavestate project buddies have already agreed that "people are "FREE" to enter into agreements selling themselves into servitude to pay off a debt." and that "the idea of bankruptcy protection from inordinate debt should be illegal."

So, again, I ask you, what kind of "FREEDOM" is it when people can charge more than what one can make for things like shelter, things that are necessities? Things like medical care, which is extrotion by definition when one charges more than what one can every make to provide the service of saving your life? What kind of "FREEDOM" is it when there is no other choice for the non-wealthy person other than enter into an agreement that makes one a slave or die when one refuses?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
...would it be considered both fraud and an initiation of force when the majority who cannot afford the outrageous prices for such necessities are thus forced into slavery just for the right to live?

this is a strawman in that in a free market, the 'majority' or even significant 'minority' will always be able to afford such items. If some worldwide crop plague occurred and there was only enough food for half the population, then half will starve no matter what system for (re)distribution you use. The free market will distribute the most food to the most folks most efficiently.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, this is a riot, I'm laughing here. Oh, that won't happen in OUR utopia, we won't do anything to make sure it doesn't happen, but we promise it won't by some magical method that we cannot describe.

"A SIGNIFICANT MINORITY will have freedom but the rest of you will get the FREEDOM of choice to become slaves or die... Oh, that is TOO funny!!!

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Why do you create such implausible situations? Do you have any 'real-life' concerns or just ones that exist only in some world which is not governed by physical laws?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I'm just giving you the actual situation AS IT EXISTS TODAY in the current world. There are many necessities that are BEYOND THE REACH of many in THIS NATION already! And here you are saying that those people shouldn't even have the tiny protections they have now, but should be FREE to be preyed upon by the rich.

As I said before, in a dictatorship the dictator has the ultimate freedom. In your little utopian state the wealthy is the dictator and they are absolutely free, free to subject those who are not wealthy to any abuse one wishes to inflict.

Sorry, I CHOOSE the tyranny of the present government to your brand of insidious tyranny.

[Packratt]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Kyran,)
Then shut up and get me a sandwich.

And bring me a beer too slave.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

And here we see the mind of a person who "values freedom" in the way all libertarians do... The freedom to be a tyrant and slaveowner that is.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Sorry to be hard on ya, dude. But your venting isn't making you feel any better. Joining the big government family is not going to beat neocons either. Think. If you want freedom from others, don't you need self-rule? Isn't that what choice is all about?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Sure it is, I am free to join the democratic party and try to change it from the inside by running for office or working inside that party in some capacity, I'll start locally and will persuade others of what the party should stand for, to protect the majority from the tyranny of the wealthy minority. Thanks to people like you I finally realise why it's important to be involved in the process instead of fighting it.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

If you don't like the "evils" of corporate America...then why support it financially? Start your own business. You can do it. Compete and beat them at their own game. Don't work for em!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Hmm, yeah, I'll rub the two pennies I have together and call that a company. What a foolish teenage idealistic thing to say.

Speaking of, I have to get ready for work, you know, that thing we grownups do in the real world in order to survive and feed our kids? I've wasted enough time already trying to teach kids what the real world is like and how it's a lot different than what they read in books.

I'll give you one more shot before I leave.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Packratt's concept that "monopolistic businesses are going to enslave us" can never happen. As soon as groceries get too expensive, somebody is gonna compete. We'll be eating chinese rice and mexican first. Perhaps he has some faith in the idea that World Government will prevent this problem by taking control of the earth's resources. Hmm, maybe it CAN happen.

Your thoughts and opinions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

The utopian idealism of "free marketeering" has already been tried in various places with disasterous results on the working class. Despite the assertion without evidence to back it that monopolistic practices are impossible with that utopian system there is nothing inherent within the idea of libertarianism that prevents the tyranny of capital and monopolism, as I've demonstrated in other threads.

A healthy society is a balanced society, and the libertarians seek to throw the scales to the EXTREME of unbalanced power for the wealthy.

[LiveAndLetLive]

My take on the word "fair":

Nothing inherently wrong with it in public affairs. The question is, what does it mean? For me, to be "fair" is to be "true" to that which is self evident, that we're all created equal, and we have rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That's what's fair. To infringe on rights is unfair, for it denies one's rights.

The key is "created" equal, not equality in outcomes. Each has the right to pursue happiness as each sees fit. Many are dealt a less abundant hand, surely, but to take abundance from one and give to another is surely not fair.

[Leopard]

Packratt,
It's so sad, you can't even see that you already are a slave, a slave to the state, to your defeatism, to your hopelessness - and you look to the benevelence of government to 'save' you... the same government that enslaved you.

You complain that you can't rub 'two pennies' together and create a company... you actually think that all you are is denominatied by 'money'? Another 'slave attitude', you have given up on yourself. I KNOW that you have more than 'two pennies', you have a brain, you have a body: these things are your REAL wealth, use them to create a company. Do you have an idea for a company, one that could compete in some better way than other companies? If so, talk to people, see if you can find others that agree and would invest in your 'project'. There are businesses which are possible to start up without money: cleaning services, lawn mowing, manual labor - build up your money so that you can re-invest in yourself and expand your business by buying equipment, hiring others, etc....

...but, you can't do this, right? oh, poor poor packrat - lets make others pay for his martyrdom...

I work, I work 70-80 hrs per week. I own my business NOW. I just paid off a $35k piece of equipment. I ain't rich, but I am better than I was 5 yrs ago, or even 1 yr ago. I compete with other companies by providing services they don't or offering a lower price. I hire others when it makes sense. I also help out the person on the street, the ones who are willing to work - I have given shelter to folks I don't know, and money and food. I can honestly say that because of my actions, I have helped other humans lift themselves out of ruts just like the one you are in: not by giving them things, but by showing them where they lost their way and ofering advice on how to get back on track and into society. I know what the 'real' world is, Packratt, and you are living on the edge of it - jump into life, educate yourself, understand the forces that drive your life and take action... or is it tooo hard? Then go off in the woods and die since you have deemed yoursaelf not worthy of the effort.

[tman_ndsu08]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
Alright then, let's pose this. Since the libertarians support the idea of indentured servitude and do not believe there should be restrictions on what can be charged for necessities like shelter, food, water, or medical care,(free market after all), would it be considered both fraud and an initiation of force when the majority who cannot afford the outrageous prices for such necessities are thus forced into slavery just for the right to live?

While one can argue that there may be a "tyranny of fairness", it could also be argued that there is tyranny in unrestrained freedom.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

You smoke some good stuff, man.

Buyers are the ones who control prices...not sellers. If a buyer doesn't like the price they can simply go to another seller.

[commonsense]

"Fairness" and "Equality" are socialist buzz-words intended to destroy the Constitution. Just spend 5 minutes in any U.S. college or university and you'll find yourself bombarded with illogical (and unquestioned) openly admitted droning about how these priciples are natural and universal and how "property rights" and "equality of opportunity instead of outcome" are a historical anomaly (U.S. founding philosophy) and how poorly the world is served by it, and how it is high time socialism were adopted world-wide.
They confuse and misguide our youth, mainly by artificially dividing them into various groups, namely Afro-American, Afro-Caribbean, etc etc.
Its funny because I know a hot chick from Ghana who laughs at how the positive influences of Booker T. Washington (remember how once every inner-city grade-school was named after him?) are being obscured and "de-bunked" in favor of a glorified revisionist history of the radical self-serving egotist socialist W.E.B. DuBois and his failed efforts in the 1930's to gain a black majority of socialists....
DuBois, once failing to gain control of the NAACP, took his socialist ideals to Africa and suckered Kwarme Nkbune into making him some sort of advisor, and then succeeded in destroying Ghana's economy and establishing crippling corrupt forces that continue to plague them today.
There are organizations like the "pan-African student union" and others that purport themselves to be "cultural heritage" are actually fronts for indoctrinating "spiritually lost" African-Americans into socialism (my Ghananian friend's words, not mine) and the bit of phony prestige their "Africana studies" receive on campus.

The real shame of all this is these organizations have large budgets and are funded by "student fees" and indirectly by the U.S. taxpayer by inflating tuition costs...all to destroy FREEDOM FOR ALL MANKIND just so a few daishiki and bead-wearing affirmative-action phonies can have a little false prestige in academia and dream of one day ruling africa...talk about selling out!!!!!

[Edge]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)

I'm just giving you the actual situation AS IT EXISTS TODAY in the current world. There are many necessities that are BEYOND THE REACH of many in THIS NATION already! And here you are saying that those people shouldn't even have the tiny protections they have now, but should be FREE to be preyed upon by the rich.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
I would love to see the source documentation that supports that there are vast quantities of people that do not have access to the basic necessities. You know; Food, Water, Clothing, Shelter. Even emergency room health care is available to everyone regardless of ability to pay. (If there are not vast quantities in the "many" you claim, then I think you point is lacking.)

I think the US does exceptionally well for it's poor. http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm
I fail to see how redistributing more money, or creating an atmosphere that will allow more people to escape poverty will benfit the very people you wish to help.

[Write Winger]

News Flash...life's not fair...no details at 11.

[Leopard]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)

I'm just giving you the actual situation AS IT EXISTS TODAY in the current world. There are many necessities that are BEYOND THE REACH of many in THIS NATION already! And here you are saying that those people shouldn't even have the tiny protections they have now, but should be FREE to be preyed upon by the rich.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

rhetoric is all you have here sir - show me some substance now:

Please explain how the 'rich' prey upon the poor?

Keep in mind that the 'protections' are:

It is illegal to initiate force or fraud against another.

Feel free to explain in as great of detail as you wish.

michael

[commonsense]

Remember when "Minding one's own business" and "Not looking for favors" where among the most widely held social mores?
Nobody can.

[Kyran]

No Leopard! There is no hope for us! I don't wanna run my own life, but I'm gonna run yours! Everyone's EEEEEVIL and we're not gonna take it anymore! Soon ve vill take over ALLLLLL ze America! Mwahahahaha...

Packratt, you aren't having a startling revelation. You're having a nervous breakdown. What I'm trying to get through your thick skull is the idea that nobody out there will rule over you in a nice way. Ruling others isn't NICE itself.

The truth is I value your freedom even if you're dumb enough to hand it over to anyone who wants it. Why give your service to Uncle Sam when you can wash my feet and walk my dog? I give you the option to leave if you want; government doesn't. But I'm the bad guy! Oh yeah, the tyranny of having choices. Oops I forgot.

Well since you aren't making choices for yourself anymore, Mister Enlightened, it is time for you to begin doing what others tell you to. Let's begin with a democratic vote to decide how to divide up your belongings. All in favor of receiving a portion of his livelihood, please raise your hands. If any are opposed; they will get nothing.

Try not to confuse freedom with tyranny. It's not really difficult to tell the two apart. We're not trying to RULE OVER you. Tyranny comes from governments; not from anywhere else.

[Leopard]

lol!

leave me outta the vote - I would rather work for my meal, I will take no part in tyrannizing the minority (packratt) - see, Packratt, I truly do LOVE you! well, at least I can say that I show you more compassion than any government

michael

[Write Winger]

I think that those who want to be enslaved definitely should be. Let us create regional states for the freedom haters...we move them into these areas of the country, assigned them something productive like growning food or making stuff and then we take it all away from them. We will have to burn all this stuff so as not to skew the markets in the free areas where people make their own choices and build their own futures.