Could this have worked?

[Savant]

On the morning ride to work I often sit across from two loud women who happen to be enthusiastic Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists. Despite the fact that I wear headphones during most of our two hour long commute (California) I often have to listen to them agreeing with each other's Christian perspectives on things.

Both are usually holding Bible's and talking about Jesus type things. I think they treat our commute as a sort of Bible study, and naturally as they are out in public they are fullfilling their need to spread His Word.

Now, most folks know I consider all religion equally ridiculous, and I look down upon all people who fall victim to these religions. One of the many reasons that I dislike religions and religious people so much is the blurring of reality. Specificly, it's the ignorance of the fact that nothing supernatural exists that bothers me.

And because (almost) all religions require acceptance of supernatural explanations, people who are religious tend to believing in other supernatural phenominon. Which bring me back two the two tubs of lard I sit across from on my morning commute.

This morning they are in their usual form. One preaching, the other nodding, and vise versa. But during the silence between songs part of their conversation makes it past my headphones. Today's topic is ghosts.

One of the women is talking about the ghost that lives in her house. Of course she has all of the usual evidence. Peculiar feelings when she's alone, the occasional noise, things that weren't where she remembered leaving them, etc. And as usual her audience is nodding approvingly.. believingly.

As this is so typical of American Xians, I can't help but think that this has to be typical of fundies in other countries. And that got me wondering... imagine if it were more than creaks and groans in a quiet house and a cup that was on a dresser when it was supposed to be on the end table. Imagine if there was a well funded organization was using all sorts of techniques to create a ghostly experience.

Can you imagine what sort of haunting could be created with a million dollar budget? How bout 20 million? How about a billion? Or even 40 billion dollars!

Imagine walking into a house that was secretly converted into evidence of a ghostly pressence with a 40 billion dollar budget. Don't you think even an intullectical atheist like myself would walk out of there with soiled underwear and a newfound belief in the supernatural?

Get to the point Savant.

My point is this. Our war on "terror" is looking more and more like a quagmire with every passing day, most folks would agree with that. And part of the problem is our enemy's faith in the supernatural. These folks are absolutely convinced that souls are eternal, that rather than killing themselves they are actually martyring themselves into a pile of ethereal virgin pootang.

We can't defeat them because their "reality" is that death is good. And its a big problem for us.

But it doesn't have to be. Like our Xians, these people have a malable reality. These are believers, addicted to faith, believers in the supernatural. So if their reality is our problem... why not change it for them?

What if we took half of the budget for the war on terror, and used it to manufacture a religious experience. A real miracle.

Imagine if we secretly created some sort of isolated Godly palace out in the desert of Iraq. Using the latest and greatest technoligies and under the advise of our finest illusionists and with such a ridiculous budget, we could create something that would make Disneyland pale by comparison.

Imagine a place guarded by moving statutes that shot lighting at any person my might tresspass without permission. The palace itself would be stunning and inside would be a real living Messiah. Who's booming voice would seem to come from all around you, but there was no mic nor speakers. You could ask Him questions or kneel before Him in humility and reverance. Drugs could be secretly used on visitors to enhance the experience.

Sure a few skeptics might have to be killed publicly to make the miracle believable, but in the long run we would not only be able to send messages from Allah himself that put an end to terrorism... and long as we prolonged the illusion we would have an entire soceity we could control.

And even as they became modernized, or even if our miracle was proven to be a fraud, they would still believe. It's about faith after all. The man behind the curtain would just be seen as Allah testing you.

Could it work? Remember we are talking ten's of BILLIONS of dollars to do this. This is no Disneyland haunted house, this would be something of a calliber none of us has ever seen.

[Savant]

Oh c'mon folks is there no room for speculation any more? I know it sounds silly at first, but if we can be so confident that we could solve such a compicated issue with warfare, why not with trickery? Aren't the advancements we have made in technology and special effects more impressive than the evolution of our weaponry?

We have had generations of books and shows about conspiracies like these, so havent we run through every point of failure. Could we not manipulate a superstitious people into peaceful coexistance rather than use brute force?

[PatrickHenry]

How about just treating people with respect in the first place and leave your psychological manipulations for the theme parks?

[Savant]

But thisis very respectful in a sense. Rather than try to change them, rather than complain about their religous views, we would keep them just they way they are and start using their superstitions to our benifit rather then be the victim of them.

You have these groupd of people that have taken the first step themselves! They have decided that death is bad and therefor they will live out their days thinking there's no such thing. Death is just a gateway as far as these folks are concerned, and rather than correct them, we could encourage them!

Imagine beyond the technical end of the project, how amazing it would be to build a religion on modern morals. Allah himself could visit the Earth and command His people to treat women with respect. To selflessly give oil to other nations He would Condemn acts of terrorism, and teach His follows to love liberty and capitalism.

And think of the wars it would end. No more fighting over interperatation, we would be giving these folks a living God to seek the answers from. All we would be getting in return is peace and a secure suppply of oil. It's selfless really!

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Savant All we would be getting in return is peace and a secure suppply of oil.

WE wouldn't get shit, Savant. That oil is the property of our (the people's) enemies, the corporatocracy.

Quote by: Savant we would be giving these folks a living God

Your cynicism doesn't allow you to see that there already is one, and He's not too happy with a lot of folks just now. Creating a fake for commercial deception would just piss Him off even more.

Like I said before, how about just respecting people's rights for self-determination? That doesn't cost US taxpayers a damn cent. The problem with that approach? The elite are making gigabucks on this global hegemony campaign...

[Morgan_Freeman]

I don't think it would work. Keeping the secret would be too hard.

[Savant]

Quote by: PatrickHenry WE wouldn't get shit, Savant. That oil is the property of our (the people's) enemies, the corporatocracy.

If we can at least give the corporatocracy no excuse to kill our soldiers, we benefit at least a little.

Quote by: PatrickHenry Your cynicism doesn't allow you to see that there already is one, and He's not too happy with a lot of folks just now. Creating a fake for commercial deception would just piss Him off even more.

If there were a god or allah around, there would be no reason to create one. If the supernatural dieties are a no show, couldn't we step up and fill in for them? Don't worry, we could create legislation to prevent our corporatocracy from using the same methods against our own Xians. Or stop them rather.

Quote by: PatrickHenry Like I said before, how about just respecting people's rights for self-determination? That doesn't cost US taxpayers a damn cent. The problem with that approach? The elite are making gigabucks on this global hegemony campaign...

Because if people with a loose grip on reality are left unattended they tend to kill people. People who suffer from supernatural tendencies need to be controled. Isn't that the whole moral of the story from 9-11?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Savant Isn't that the whole moral of the story from 9-11?

We have differing views on THAT subject! I attribute that one to the corporatocracy...

[RVonse]

Patrick Henry is almost right, we just need to treat them with respect in the first place.

Savant you have bought into a lot of fake propaganda, religion has had nothing to do with this at all. Don't confuse the woman you ride with to whats been going on in the middle east. They have nothing at all to do with each other. Here is a great article to read and you will finally understand the truth what is really going on:

http://www.larryflynt.com/notebook.php?id=107

"Why do you think this country was attacked?

Among specialists on the region [the Middle East], terror specialists and intelligence agencies, there isn't much disagreement. The reasons were understood a long time ago. President Eisenhower and his staff discussed what Eisenhower called "The Campaign of Hatred Against the U.S. in the Arab World." His advisers, the National Security Council, published reports back in 1958 saying the reason is the perception that the U.S. supports brutal and authoritarian regimes and blocks democracy and development, and that we do so because we want to have control over their oil resources. This was basically accurate. Right after 9/11, The Wall Street Journal conducted a study of opinion in Muslim countries, of [people] who they called "Money Muslims"-you know, the kind of people they care about, like executives of multinational corporations, lawyers, professionals and so on. The study found that there's a tremendous hatred of the U.S. among these people who are closely integrated with American power and wealth. Their opinion is based on the same issues.

And they had more specific objections: U.S. support for Israel's takeover, and by then a 35-year military occupation, and the brutal treatment of Palestinians-that was a huge issue with them. Also, they were very upset about the sanctions in Iraq, as was everyone in the Arab world. The sanctions killed hundreds of thousands of people and devastated the civilian society. The sanctions strengthened Saddam Hussein, whom they all hated, and forced the population to rely on him for survival; so he couldn't be overthrown."

[oranged]

America's dangerous enemies have almost no faith, your troubles with fanatic muslums can be solved just by leaving their land. The real problem is with China, and Russia. How would we put up something like this anyway.In China, first of all, with out faith they wouldn't believe it in the first place, second of all they'd find it before it was finished and blow it away. Who's to say is the American government is stupid enough to continue it's current war that Iraqi people wouldn't do the same. The only reason they can fight the American is because the know the turf, if they saw a bunch of drunken contruction workers build some billion dollar theme park on the sand, they'd suicide bomb it, and boom there goes all your half-assed tax payer money.

[northtexan]

Quote by: Savant On the morning ride to work I often sit across from two loud women who happen to be enthusiastic Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists. Despite the fact that I wear headphones during most of our two hour long commute (California) I often have to listen to them agreeing with each other's Christian perspectives on things. Both are usually holding Bible's and talking about Jesus type things. I think they treat our commute as a sort of Bible study, and naturally as they are out in public they are fullfilling their need to spread His Word. Now, most folks know I consider all religion equally ridiculous, and I look down upon all people who fall victim to these religions. One of the many reasons that I dislike religions and religious people so much is the blurring of reality. Specificly, it's the ignorance of the fact that nothing supernatural exists that bothers me. And because (almost) all religions require acceptance of supernatural explanations, people who are religious tend to believing in other supernatural phenominon. Which bring me back two the two tubs of lard I sit across from on my morning commute. This morning they are in their usual form. One preaching, the other nodding, and vise versa. But during the silence between songs part of their conversation makes it past my headphones. Today's topic is ghosts. One of the women is talking about the ghost that lives in her house. Of course she has all of the usual evidence. Peculiar feelings when she's alone, the occasional noise, things that weren't where she remembered leaving them, etc. And as usual her audience is nodding approvingly.. believingly. As this is so typical of American Xians, I can't help but think that this has to be typical of fundies in other countries. And that got me wondering... imagine if it were more than creaks and groans in a quiet house and a cup that was on a dresser when it was supposed to be on the end table. Imagine if there was a well funded organization was using all sorts of techniques to create a ghostly experience. Can you imagine what sort of haunting could be created with a million dollar budget? How bout 20 million? How about a billion? Or even 40 billion dollars! Imagine walking into a house that was secretly converted into evidence of a ghostly pressence with a 40 billion dollar budget. Don't you think even an intullectical atheist like myself would walk out of there with soiled underwear and a newfound belief in the supernatural? Get to the point Savant. My point is this. Our war on "terror" is looking more and more like a quagmire with every passing day, most folks would agree with that. And part of the problem is our enemy's faith in the supernatural. These folks are absolutely convinced that souls are eternal, that rather than killing themselves they are actually martyring themselves into a pile of ethereal virgin pootang. We can't defeat them because their "reality" is that death is good. And its a big problem for us. But it doesn't have to be. Like our Xians, these people have a malable reality. These are believers, addicted to faith, believers in the supernatural. So if their reality is our problem... why not change it for them? What if we took half of the budget for the war on terror, and used it to manufacture a religious experience. A real miracle. Imagine if we secretly created some sort of isolated Godly palace out in the desert of Iraq. Using the latest and greatest technoligies and under the advise of our finest illusionists and with such a ridiculous budget, we could create something that would make Disneyland pale by comparison. Imagine a place guarded by moving statutes that shot lighting at any person my might tresspass without permission. The palace itself would be stunning and inside would be a real living Messiah. Who's booming voice would seem to come from all around you, but there was no mic nor speakers. You could ask Him questions or kneel before Him in humility and reverance. Drugs could be secretly used on visitors to enhance the experience. Sure a few skeptics might have to be killed publicly to make the miracle believable, but in the long run we would not only be able to send messages from Allah himself that put an end to terrorism... and long as we prolonged the illusion we would have an entire soceity we could control. And even as they became modernized, or even if our miracle was proven to be a fraud, they would still believe. It's about faith after all. The man behind the curtain would just be seen as Allah testing you. Could it work? Remember we are talking ten's of BILLIONS of dollars to do this. This is no Disneyland haunted house, this would be something of a calliber none of us has ever seen.

Savant, you are as much a true believer as those evangelical women. How can you KNOW that there is no such thing as the supernatural? I know plenty of atheists who don't claim to KNOW such a thing, they just don't consider the possibility so remote that it's not worth worrying about. Of course, I consider that we agnostics are more reasonable in saying that we don't know and likely cannot know.

But let's forget for a moment that you claim to know what you can't. Why in the world would you want to reintroduce a belief in a false supernatural? What you suggest ranks up there with the most cynical ploys of televangelists -- a la Marjoe. I hope that your ploy could not work; and I consider it abominable whoever suggests it: you, or the true-believing evangelist who had so far limited himself to anti-evolution dinosaur theme park fantasies.

[northtexan]

Quote by: oranged America's dangerous enemies have almost no faith, your troubles with fanatic muslums can be solved just by leaving their land. The real problem is with China, and Russia. How would we put up something like this anyway.In China, first of all, with out faith they wouldn't believe it in the first place, second of all they'd find it before it was finished and blow it away. Who's to say is the American government is stupid enough to continue it's current war that Iraqi people wouldn't do the same. The only reason they can fight the American is because the know the turf, if they saw a bunch of drunken contruction workers build some billion dollar theme park on the sand, they'd suicide bomb it, and boom there goes all your half-assed tax payer money.

So what's your problem with Russia? They are what should have been expected: after decades of state capitalist (that is, Communist) trauma they were subjected to the further trauma of a totally-free-market system, with the predictable result of developing the worst forms of gangsterism. Russia, since the fall of the USSR, is just what we helped shape.