Who's in charge here? Reflections on disaster response

[RickSp]

This evening I watched Countdown on MSNBC and have been flabbergasted at all the stories of how FEMA has not only not provided help to those in need following the Katrina disaster, but has actively blocked others from providing aid. Horrible but too believable. Katrina was horrific. FEMA is making it worse.

One day after the fourth anniversary, I am reminded of the amazing events of 9/11/01. As absolutely hellish and scarring that day was, there were elements that were nothing less than inspiring. For example:

Roughly half a million people trapped in lower Manhattan were evacuated by ferries, launches, tugs boats, diner cruise boats and generally anything that would float, in a larger maritime evacuation than Dunkirk. It was completed in an afternoon.

The bright lights that illuminated Ground Zero the night of 9/11 were not emergency lights owned by the city. They were production lights from movie and television production companies all over the city. The large construction cranes that immediately began pulling out chunks of refuse, were not owned or rented by the city or state. They were from construction sites all over the city.

An army of skilled workers began to assemble within hours of the towers falling. Steel workers, health care professionals, food service providers to feed everyone. Thousands and thousands of people ready to help.

Who arranged all the logistics? Who was providing the command and control? Who contacted everyone? Who arranged the resources and support functions?

Nobody. Absolutely nobody. Or maybe everyone.

New York City had an Emergency Response Center that was intended to respond to emergencies. Unfortunately it was located in the World Trade Center and was buried under thousands of tons for flaming steel.

So how did it all happen?

People just showed up. The company that ran ferry boats on the Hudson shifted to the East River after their Hudson Docks were destroyed. Everyone else operating a boat or launch in the harbor also joined in. The waters were crowde with boats evacuating office workers from downtown.

The folks who owned all the lights and heavy equipment were never ordered or even asked to help. They just knew what needed to be done. Likewise, the construction and health workers just came. They showed up because they were needed. On our side of the river, friends and families helped load boats with supplies for all the workers. Everyone did what they could.

Ironically, the bankers, lawyers, brokers and accountants who could do little, stood on the West Side highway and cheered as the workers rode trucks toward the fires at Ground Zero. With nothing more they could do, cheering on others at least was something.

I was reminded of Sparta, whose greatest boast was that her men were the walls of Sparta. Their strength was not in mortar or stone but in the men of teh city. In the months after 9/11 I came to understand that the strength of the American people was the strength of this country. The people of New York were indeed the walls of our Sparta.

I wonder how much more chaotic things would have been after 9/11 if someone was really in "control" in those early hours. We have seen the damage FEMA has done after Katrina. With nobody really in control, 9/12 and the days that followed where their own small, difficult and wrenching sort of miracle. A horrible but amazing time.

[SteveA]

Nicely said, Rick.

(In some defense of the slower federal response, the scale of damage was large, and there were fewer surrounding areas left undamaged to provide assistance as well, but the point that it still was untimely and of questionable benefit as well, or even obstructive of the already active private and local efforts going on there seems to be undefendable)

But thank you for shining a light on the more positive side of things :)

[RickSp]

Quote by: SteveA Nicely said, Rick. (In some defense of the slower federal response, the scale of damage was large, and there were fewer surrounding areas left undamaged to provide assistance as well, but the point that it still was untimely and of questionable benefit as well, or even obstructive of the already active private and local efforts going on there seems to be undefendable) But thank you for shining a light on the more positive side of things :)

If you listen to the stories about FEMA stopping help from getting through it is really alarming. A group of Illinois doctors, part of a rapid response medical team, was delayed far days as FEMA reviewed their documents. Another response team was moved around to various sites outside the disaster area and was ultimately send home without treating anyone.

Firefighters from Detroit were not given fuel for their firetrucks for reasons related to more paperwork for several days. Offers of help from Chicago were simply ignored.

And on and on it goes. Here are lot sof other examples:

“Unacceptable”: The Federal Response to Katrina

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: RickSp One day after the fourth anniversary, I am reminded of the amazing events of 9/11/01. As absolutely hellish and scarring that day was, there were elements that were nothing less than inspiring.

Yeah, but then this WAS New York after all. I don't know what makes it so but New Yorkers in general are a breed unto themselves. Remember the blackout last year?

Of course, a lot of other cities have their own mystique but I'm familiar with NYC.

I wish I could say the same thing about Jersey City, but whaddya gonna do?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Yeah, but then this WAS New York after all. I don't know what makes it so but New Yorkers in general are a breed unto themselves. Remember the blackout last year? Of course, a lot of other cities have their own mystique but I'm familiar with NYC. I wish I could say the same thing about Jersey City, but whaddya gonna do?

Shhhhh. Don't mention Jersey City. If everybody learns about the magic, it will be like a good restaurant just reviewed by the New York Times, the regulars won't be able to get a table. So lets just keep Jersey City a secret.OK?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: RickSp Shhhhh. Don't mention Jersey City. If everybody learns about the magic, it will be like a good restaurant just reviewed by the New York Times, the regulars won't be able to get a table. So lets just keep Jersey City a secret.OK?

Not a problem. There were plenty of times I kept it a secret even from myself, and I lived there!

But that was the late 60's and you know...

Easy to keep things from yourself. if you get my drift.

[m3talsmith_redu]

Quote by: RickSp This evening I watched Countdown on MSNBC and have been flabbergasted at all the stories of how FEMA has not only not provided help to those in need following the Katrina disaster, but has actively blocked others from providing aid. Horrible but too believable. Katrina was horrific. FEMA is making it worse. One day after the fourth anniversary, I am reminded of the amazing events of 9/11/01. As absolutely hellish and scarring that day was, there were elements that were nothing less than inspiring. For example: ... An army of skilled workers began to assemble within hours of the towers falling. Steel workers, health care professionals, food service providers to feed everyone. Thousands and thousands of people ready to help. Who arranged all the logistics? Who was providing the command and control? Who contacted everyone? Who arranged the resources and support functions? Nobody. Absolutely nobody. Or maybe everyone. ... So how did it all happen? People just showed up. The company that ran ferry boats on the Hudson shifted to the East River after their Hudson Docks were destroyed. Everyone else operating a boat or launch in the harbor also joined in. The waters were crowde with boats evacuating office workers from downtown. The folks who owned all the lights and heavy equipment were never ordered or even asked to help. They just knew what needed to be done. Likewise, the construction and health workers just came. They showed up because they were needed. On our side of the river, friends and families helped load boats with supplies for all the workers. Everyone did what they could.... ...A horrible but amazing time.

Rick, here is a good summary of the horrible truth.

Also, there was a huge outpouring of help immediately after the hurricane hit and the levees fell!

What happened to all the help?

FEMA, the Governor, our President, Congress, and many others stop it dead in it's tracks!

Well I'd love to stick around to see the results of their valuable (blech) report as to why they failed to meet this need, but I have better things to do than read the same old lies... I'm still fighting to support my family against the constant devaluing of our cash supply... :(

[Prometheus]

Shit happens. You can bitch about it, and how the shit should have been handled, but you are left with shit any way you strain it. Finger pointing is just silly. People should deal with thier problems and move on, not while that they didn;'t receive enough assistance.

I have a girlfriend whose house was blown down, and they are doing just fine. Yah it sucks, but they are making it without griping about it. That's just life. I have absolutely no pity for the people who didn't get out. I have heard forst hand accounts from my friends of empty busses leaving the city because no nore people could be found to leave in them. THere was plenty of opportunity. Cops combed the entire town, telling people where to go to find a bus, and offering assistance on getting there

[Charley Davis]

Quote by: RickSp This evening I watched Countdown on MSNBC and have been flabbergasted at all the stories of how FEMA has not only not provided help to those in need following the Katrina disaster, but has actively blocked others from providing aid. Horrible but too believable. Katrina was horrific. FEMA is making it worse. One day after the fourth anniversary, I am reminded of the amazing events of 9/11/01. As absolutely hellish and scarring that day was, there were elements that were nothing less than inspiring. For example: Roughly half a million people trapped in lower Manhattan were evacuated by ferries, launches, tugs boats, diner cruise boats and generally anything that would float, in a larger maritime evacuation than Dunkirk. It was completed in an afternoon. The bright lights that illuminated Ground Zero the night of 9/11 were not emergency lights owned by the city. They were production lights from movie and television production companies all over the city. The large construction cranes that immediately began pulling out chunks of refuse, were not owned or rented by the city or state. They were from construction sites all over the city. An army of skilled workers began to assemble within hours of the towers falling. Steel workers, health care professionals, food service providers to feed everyone. Thousands and thousands of people ready to help. Who arranged all the logistics? Who was providing the command and control? Who contacted everyone? Who arranged the resources and support functions? Nobody. Absolutely nobody. Or maybe everyone. New York City had an Emergency Response Center that was intended to respond to emergencies. Unfortunately it was located in the World Trade Center and was buried under thousands of tons for flaming steel. So how did it all happen? People just showed up. The company that ran ferry boats on the Hudson shifted to the East River after their Hudson Docks were destroyed. Everyone else operating a boat or launch in the harbor also joined in. The waters were crowde with boats evacuating office workers from downtown. The folks who owned all the lights and heavy equipment were never ordered or even asked to help. They just knew what needed to be done. Likewise, the construction and health workers just came. They showed up because they were needed. On our side of the river, friends and families helped load boats with supplies for all the workers. Everyone did what they could. Ironically, the bankers, lawyers, brokers and accountants who could do little, stood on the West Side highway and cheered as the workers rode trucks toward the fires at Ground Zero. With nothing more they could do, cheering on others at least was something. I was reminded of Sparta, whose greatest boast was that her men were the walls of Sparta. Their strength was not in mortar or stone but in the men of teh city. In the months after 9/11 I came to understand that the strength of the American people was the strength of this country. The people of New York were indeed the walls of our Sparta. I wonder how much more chaotic things would have been after 9/11 if someone was really in "control" in those early hours. We have seen the damage FEMA has done after Katrina. With nobody really in control, 9/12 and the days that followed where their own small, difficult and wrenching sort of miracle. A horrible but amazing time.

I agree with your assessment of the actions of the people of NYC. They did have a plan and they had one goal. The emergency there was restricted to a relatively small area.The people of that area knew not to keep all their eggs in one basket, and they came together for a common cause.

Katrina is a totally different item.

[ibm]

Quote by: Prometheus Shit happens. You can bitch about it, and how the shit should have been handled, but you are left with shit any way you strain it. Finger pointing is just silly. People should deal with thier problems and move on, not while that they didn;'t receive enough assistance. I have a girlfriend whose house was blown down, and they are doing just fine. Yah it sucks, but they are making it without griping about it. That's just life. I have absolutely no pity for the people who didn't get out. I have heard forst hand accounts from my friends of empty busses leaving the city because no nore people could be found to leave in them. THere was plenty of opportunity. Cops combed the entire town, telling people where to go to find a bus, and offering assistance on getting there

as a citizen, your attitude of handling things are just fine. but are you saying nowadays people not only have to take whatever shit that happens to them, but also don't have the rights to complain, even though lives have been lost?

no matter what people say, you can't deny the fact that many didn't have means to leave and you can't evacuate everyone and not leaving a single soul behind - in any evacuation that is.

look, i don't like do everything along the party line, but let's just call spade a spade. the reaction and control by fema in n.o. during the first few days were shitty and have cost lives.

[Prometheus]

I already explained my very good reasons for stating that anyone could have gotten out if they really wanted to. Of course no evacuation always works. Our society has a certian percentage of idiots.

Of course they have a right to complain. It's free speech. Wheather I have to have sympathy is totally different.

[ibm]

are you implying that anyone who has sympathy has some sort of mental problem? you should come down and see for yourself...

[Prometheus]

I never implied a mental problem. I just consider such pity illogical when given certain peices of first hand evidance.

Come down and see for myself? The destruction is evidant. I never said that the destruction was not terrible. And I never said I don't sympathize with those who lost thier houses.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Prometheus Shit happens. You can bitch about it, and how the shit should have been handled, but you are left with shit any way you strain it. Finger pointing is just silly. People should deal with thier problems and move on, not while that they didn;'t receive enough assistance.

I disagree. Pointing fingers (where they deserve to BE pointed) is just about the only recourse most of us HAVE when we see something wrong. NOT pointing fingers is the same thing as acceptance of what is, even when it's wrong.

And I would agree with you that "shit happens" in that we should be more responsible for protecting ourselves, except for one detail. From the president on down, we have been told over and over that the government WILL take care of us and protect us. The entire concept of the Department of Homeland Security is to do just that. Bush and the Congress went out of their way to sell DHS to us and then gave us no choice but to accept it. Not only are they "taking care of us", they are charging us through the nose to DO it! I don't have the current FEMA and/or DHS budget in front of me but you get the idea.

It would be better if they just said, "If something bad happens, you folks are pretty much on your own." However, if they DID decide to be honest and tell us that, they wouldn't be able to justify all the post-9/11 agencies and extra layers of bureaucracy that need to be fed "in our interest."

[Prometheus]

Well I have to warn you that as a libertarian, I have a very different idea of what exactly our government is supposed to protect up from. But that's a whole other debate.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Scribbler1 And I would agree with you that "shit happens" in that we should be more responsible for protecting ourselves, except for one detail. From the president on down, we have been told over and over that the government WILL take care of us and protect us. The entire concept of the Department of Homeland Security is to do just that.

And anyone who believed them is a fool.

Quote by: Scribbler1 Bush and the Congress went out of their way to sell DHS to us and then gave us no choice but to accept it.

Of course we had a choice. Everyone LOVES the idea of the DHS. It makes them feel nice and safe to have their nail clippers taken away from them before they get on a plane.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman And anyone who believed them is a fool.

Not really. Remember there are a LOT of people who trust our government, they just don't post much on forums like this. They trust the government to enforce the laws, fight wars and keep our economy on an even keel, among other things. It follows that people who trust the government to protect them from so many other things also trust them when a disaster occurs, especially when that trusted entity keeps TELLING them they will protect them.

Being a fool and believing a lie are not always the same thing if the liar is a skilled one.

Of course we had a choice. Everyone LOVES the idea of the DHS. I makes them feel nice and safe to have their nail clippers taken away from them before they get on a plane.

If we had a choice I didn't see it. Bush, when he was touting the DHS all over the country didn't ask us if we WANTED it, he told us we were GETTING it. Some choice!

[Boetie]

Prometheus posts Shit happens. You can bitch about it, and how the shit should have been handled, but you are left with shit any way you strain it. Finger pointing is just silly. People should deal with thier problems and move on, not while that they didn;'t receive enough assistance.

Translation of the above: Why was New Orleans in Louisiana? shouldn't it have been in Iraq? If it had been Iraq the hurricane would have struck there and the problem would have been taken care of because all our resources are there. So the fault is on New Orleans being in Louisiana instead of Iraq

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Scribbler1 If we had a choice I didn't see it. Bush, when he was touting the DHS all over the country didn't ask us if we WANTED it, he told us we were GETTING it. Some choice!

If people had opposed it, it wouldn't have happened. That simple.
The Prez can't just make anything he wants happen. There has to be popular support.

In fact, this is the myth behind "democracy". All government is democratic. A regime can't exist without popular support.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman There has to be popular support.

People are told what to think. Most are willing to be led...