good value for tax money.

[Athena]

I like this term Nono used. I do not like the link Capitalist Pig used for the state and flood thread, declaring privatization is the solution to better public services. The government supported private enprise of medical drugs and supplies is outragously corrupt!!! Enron was outraguously corrupt!!! The Bush junior administration is outragously corrupt because Bush is incompetent and uses the patronage system, instead of understanding the importance of merit and actually being qualified to do a job. Why should he be concerned if anyone is qualified to a job, he knows he flaked off his college and service years and he got to be president anyway. He is running government the same as he goofed around in his school years, inviting friends to the party.

Look folks our nation is in a moral crisis, and neither privatizing public services, nor dependence on a level of government that is beyond our control is going to resolve any problems. Where we need to start resolving the problems is in public education. We seriously need to return to education for citizenship and get serious about turning around our morality, morale, and the direction of our democracy.

I hope to work through a nieghborhood organization to get control of the local Red Cross and assure we are ready to care for ourselves so FEMA can have a week or two to get its act together. NOT PRIVATE, NOT GOVERNMENT, BUT GOOD OLD FASHIONED NEIGHBORLY.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Athena, your neighborhood plan is private action.

It's the kind of civil society that used to be strong in this country but was crushed by the growth of political society.

[Athena]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Athena, your neighborhood plan is private action. It's the kind of civil society that used to be strong in this country but was crushed by the growth of political society.

Finally we have agreement. I think? Patrick Henry is aware of a book explaining how public education has been used to make citizens subjects of the state. Until there is awareness of this and what made education different before 1958, we can not change public education and can not resolve our problems. We must return to empowering the people through education and civil (thanks for that word) organization.

[RickSp]

The Red Cross, a private (and a neighbourly organization), has 36,000 volunteers in the field right now sheltering 160,000 survivors. They are recruiting another 40,000 volunteers to help out. They have begun training the new volunteers around the country.

My wife and I have donated what we can directly and the company she works for is matching our contribution. We are also donating clothes and food through our local school.

What we are doing isn't anything special. My point is that millions of neighborly Americans are doing what they can to help the survivors of Katrina. Americans help each other. We are a generous and caring people.

[Osborn F Enready]

In a privatized system we would all prosper better than we do now.

Forced taxation is another term for extortion to support beliefs you don't condone.

Its like giving a gun to the person who wants to shoot you, knowing he will use it.

[Nono]

Jeez, Os, how extreme-sounding. It isn't ballistic, or forced, if it's done by general consent.
The problem for Americans today, in my view, is that they've lost control of their political system, which is now run by lobbyists. Elections are held on schedule -- true -- but nobody can trust the results anymore (see Ohio, see Florida, etc.).

I pay taxes too. Seems a lot of dough to me, and I can certainly think of other things I could do with that money. But I pay them with a sort of spirit of civic participation and confidence that they'll be spent in a way that reflects the general will, even if I wouldn't quite spend them exactly that way.

An American journalist quoted on the BBC this past weekend summed it up nicely:
"Taxes aren't a burden. They're the price we pay for a civilized society."

[RickSp]

Quote by: Nono An American journalist quoted on the BBC this past weekend summed it up nicely: "Taxes aren't a burden. They're the price we pay for a civilized society."

Then we are getting cheated.

[Boetie]

Osborn posts In a privatized system we would all prosper better than we do now.

The above is a joke. In the state where I live electrical power is public owned. We elect the people whom are going to run the power district. If more money is taken in than the cost, that money is put aside so when prices go up the money is used to cover the increase in cost thus keeping our electrical bill from going up. In other words, profiteering, price gouging and other baloney of privatization doesn't enter the equation of running this public owned power. Try to convince the people of my state to turn this over to privatization and you will get laughed at, because the people aren't that stupid to give up a good thing as a public owned power.

[SteveA]

I hope to work through a nieghborhood organization to get control of the local Red Cross and assure we are ready to care for ourselves so FEMA can have a week or two to get its act together. NOT PRIVATE, NOT GOVERNMENT, BUT GOOD OLD FASHIONED NEIGHBORLY.

That's what we need more of.

I'm guilty of pointing fingers at a lot of government representatives and claiming they let the ball drop but that view of things is what almost preordained the events in New Orleans.

When problems arise, the person you'll most likely be in the same boat with is the neighbor next door, not anyone in D.C. or somewhere else.

[SteveA]

There was an article I read called "The Monkeysphere". I think it applies. It said that there's a spot in a monkey's brain that the size of seems to determine how large of a tribe that species of monkey lives in. By measuring that same area in a human brain they get a number around 300.

The point of this is that we only truly "know" a limited number of people. When we hear of casualties in Iraq, we don't truly feel the same thing as if it were a neighbor, family or friend etc. So as the scope of things increase we tend to cluster things as merely statistics. How many people can even picture a trillion dollars in their head much less budget this somehow for 300 million people in any efficient way?

Though it might sound a little corny, maybe the past communities with the town sheriff whose primary job was to chase cats out of tree aren't entirely incomprehensible because the entire town was almost like a family with issues on that scale. It doesn't seem that incomprehensible that law makers and police that are expected to govern over large areas and rarely meet a soul they know can't physically have that empathy but instead treat people by their SS# and don't have the same compassion that a smaller communitee has.

A lot of that is unavoidable in our modern world, but still we don't have to unnecessarily promote it. People still feel closer and more concern over events that happen in their immediate neighborhood versus what's going on 50 miles away.

There's value in having government smaller and closer to the people.

[Athena]

Quote by: SteveA That's what we need more of. I'm guilty of pointing fingers at a lot of government representatives and claiming they let the ball drop but that view of things is what almost preordained the events in New Orleans. When problems arise, the person you'll most likely be in the same boat with is the neighbor next door, not anyone in D.C. or somewhere else.

Yes, and I have Red Cross disaster training and therefore know, Red Cross has become dependent on FEMA for really big disasters and after what happened in New Orleans, I want to be sure we not dependent on anyone but ourselves so there is time for help to get to us. The New Orleans ordeal proved to us, no one is going to care about us more than we care about ourselves, and this is where we must start.

Red Cross does an excellent job of helping people everyday, but we can do better. Here they serve Meals on Wheels and provide a lot for people whose homes have burned. We have Senior Companions through the Commission on Aging that provides weekly visits to people who need visitors. The community is doing much more to help women with children. But we have specialized and these separate programs are not cordinated. Because of the lack of cordination, in time of crisis you get choas instead of everyone coming together. This is the mentality of our times and we seriously need to change that, because the political ramifications are a shift of power to the federal government, and the people now feel disinfranchized and powerless.

[Pale RIder]

Quote by: Nono An American journalist quoted on the BBC this past weekend summed it up nicely: "Taxes aren't a burden. They're the price we pay for a civilized society."

The bureaucracy eats up between 70 and 85% of every tax dollar that we pay in. I don't mind paying taxes, but I mind terribly knowing that the money that I pay in does nothing more than furthur bloat an already obscenely fat bureaucracy. There is no shortage of tax money, in fact, we are taxed far to heavily. We could do nicely on an across the board 5% tax rate if government didn't gobble up the lions share of every penny simply to fuel its own growth.

[Osborn F Enready]

Nono said:
Jeez, Os, how extreme-sounding. It isn't ballistic, or forced, if it's done by general consent.

I say:
So you are saying if a 51% majority votes in a tax, it is by general conscent? Are you saying that by a vote of our representatives, with no regard to concesus, they have the right to vote away your freedom to keep in line government through voluntarily witholding of money to prevent your further disenfranchisement? You would be wrong, and provably so.

Nono said:
The problem for Americans today, in my view, is that they've lost control of their political system, which is now run by lobbyists. Elections are held on schedule -- true -- but nobody can trust the results anymore (see Ohio, see Florida, etc.).

I say:
Thanks to people not paying attention to government action, and being forced to pay taxes to further grow the machine of their disenfranchisement. This is extortion, by force. It wouldn't be extortion, if there was no penalty for non-payment.

Nono said:
I pay taxes too. Seems a lot of dough to me, and I can certainly think of other things I could do with that money. But I pay them with a sort of spirit of civic participation and confidence that they'll be spent in a way that reflects the general will, even if I wouldn't quite spend them exactly that way.

I say:
Hey, good for you. But you have no right to speak for me. I pay taxes, as little as possible, and begrudingly, because I know the strength and freedom with which the I.R.S. is allowed to operate under our current system.

My question to you...

Do you know, or even understand the concept of LILO leasing?(Lease In Lease Out) If you don't you are very misinformed of the state of our IRS, and its ability to perform its "claimed" function.

LILO leasing is the tool that the MAJORITY of fortune 500 corporation use to evade their tax burden, and shift that burden onto the taxpayers. Many of them not only avoid that burden through this system, but they also actually receive PAYMENT THROUGH THE FED USING OUR TAX MONEY for showing a "fictional" loss of profit.

Do you know that the I.R.S. allows corporations to keep two books of record for taxes? Are you allowed the same?

Here is a link to LILO leasing, its depth, and its damage.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tc/script.html

Here is another link, discussing very local examples of LILO leasing.
http://mnwater.org/mod.php?mod=userp...0601&page_id=5

Nono said:
An American journalist quoted on the BBC this past weekend summed it up nicely:
"Taxes aren't a burden. They're the price we pay for a civilized society."

I say:
His personal opinion, not mine. Taxes of the individual are not necessary to run our government efficiently, nor has it EVER been. It is governmental fraud, and corporate theft of taxpayer dollars through tax burden shift, that allow the money vaccuum causing unchecked taxation, lack of accountability, and our failure economically.

[Osborn F Enready]

Boetie said:
The above is a joke. In the state where I live electrical power is public owned. We elect the people whom are going to run the power district. If more money is taken in than the cost, that money is put aside so when prices go up the money is used to cover the increase in cost thus keeping our electrical bill from going up. In other words, profiteering, price gouging and other baloney of privatization doesn't enter the equation of running this public owned power.

I say:
There used to be laws against this, and a means to enforce it. That should be the job of the I.R.S.

Boetie said:
Try to convince the people of my state to turn this over to privatization and you will get laughed at, because the people aren't that stupid to give up a good thing as a public owned power

I say:
Click on the links about LILO leasing in the above thread, and put the blame where it belongs.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: RickSp The Red Cross, a private (and a neighbourly organization), has 36,000 volunteers in the field right now sheltering 160,000 survivors. They are recruiting another 40,000 volunteers to help out. They have begun training the new volunteers around the country.

I recommend contributing through another organization than the American Red Cross. It has been accused of malfeasance and withholding funds from the victims in nearly every crisis situation in recent history. Still plenty of good volunteers in the ARC, doing what they can to help their neighbors and countrymen who are hurt by disaster. But the organization itself is rife with fraud, IMO. My personal contributions are going through the community of faith. My desire to help others is predicated on God's love for others, and His desire to have his followers extend His kingdom of love and mercy. There is nothing in it for me personally. What is the ethic of helping unknowns? For me it is to be faithful to the orders of my king.

Quote by: RickSp My wife and I have donated what we can directly and the company she works for is matching our contribution. We are also donating clothes and food through our local school.

You guys have good hearts, Rick.

Quote by: RickSp What we are doing isn't anything special. My point is that millions of neighborly Americans are doing what they can to help the survivors of Katrina. Americans help each other. We are a generous and caring people.

Explain this and why it is a fact. I don't contest your statement. But why do people reduce their own stack of resources to help the unfortunate? Especially the secular/non-religious? Why? What is the advantage of sharing with strangers, and what is the source of this ethic?

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Nono It isn't ballistic, or forced, if it's done by general consent.

By "general consent" you must mean "majority rule". Guess what, that means that as much as 49% of the population is being forced.

Quote by: Nono The problem for Americans today, in my view, is that they've lost control of their political system, which is now run by lobbyists.

The problem is that we've granted the governent too much power, and its out of control. There's only one solution: less government.

Quote by: Nono I pay taxes too. Seems a lot of dough to me, and I can certainly think of other things I could do with that money. But I pay them with a sort of spirit of civic participation and confidence that they'll be spent in a way that reflects the general will, even if I wouldn't quite spend them exactly that way.

It's not "civic participation". Get out of la-la land. If you don't pay your taxes, FBI agents will come and get you.

[RVonse]

Quote by: Nono Jeez, Os, how extreme-sounding. It isn't ballistic, or forced, if it's done by general consent. The problem for Americans today, in my view, is that they've lost control of their political system, which is now run by lobbyists. Elections are held on schedule -- true -- but nobody can trust the results anymore (see Ohio, see Florida, etc.). I pay taxes too. Seems a lot of dough to me, and I can certainly think of other things I could do with that money. But I pay them with a sort of spirit of civic participation and confidence that they'll be spent in a way that reflects the general will, even if I wouldn't quite spend them exactly that way. An American journalist quoted on the BBC this past weekend summed it up nicely: "Taxes aren't a burden. They're the price we pay for a civilized society."

You've just said a mouthful Nono. I think I could pay more taxes or less taxes and I would still be happy. What I can't stomach is paying taxes that always going places that the majority of the public does not want them to go. We are truely a governement of the corporations now. Actually, the CEOs are the individuals who really decide our public policy.

Very depressing.

[RVonse]

Quote by: Athena The New Orleans ordeal proved to us, no one is going to care about us more than we care about ourselves, and this is where we must start. .

I have heard this over and over by the pundits too. But there were a lot of individuals who were not allowed to walk out of the disaster threatened by gun point. How can you say we should do more for ourselves when we are not allowed to get out of a bad situation with our own 2 feet???

Quote by: Athena This is the mentality of our times and we seriously need to change that, because the political ramifications are a shift of power to the federal government, and the people now feel disinfranchized and powerless.

I don't agree that the problem was too much federal government at all. I think the federal government can and should do a better job. They have in the past and they could have this time. They should be managed better and the American public needs to demand someones hide until it get fixed right.

[RVonse]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready [B Nono said:[/b] The problem for Americans today, in my view, is that they've lost control of their political system, which is now run by lobbyists. Elections are held on schedule -- true -- but nobody can trust the results anymore (see Ohio, see Florida, etc.). I say: Thanks to people not paying attention to government action, and being forced to pay taxes to further grow the machine of their disenfranchisement. This is extortion, by force. It wouldn't be extortion, if there was no penalty for non-payment. .

Osborn I hear what you are saying but the Republicans have figured out how to grow the government without raising taxes. Raising taxes really does not mean the government has to be bigger. Spending money is how our government becomes bigger.

If you want a smaller government, you have to convince the politicians to quit spending money. Its just that simple.

But good luck getting there.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Boetie ...Try to convince the people of my state to turn this over to privatization and you will get laughed at, because the people aren't that stupid to give up a good thing as a public owned power.

You're missing the point that all these things originate through private efforts. I'd agree the state doesn't need to "give" anything to private companies (which also has the potential for abuse). It just needs to take less in the first place.