Meanwhile, back in the war.....

[Dieval]

Quote by: RickSp 1. We are planting the seeds of democracy, as if democracy can be delivered by air strike, as if democracy will flower from a brutal occupation by an infidel army. These folks are obviously either entirely disconnected from what is happening in Iraq or do not have the first clue of what the word "democracy" means. Both seem likely to me. 2. Once again the war mongers dismiss the deaths of Americans and Iraqis. Disgusting but predictable. Apparently these folks haven't figured out that the reason the insurgency keeps growing stronger is because the US continues to occupy Iraq. Pogo was right and the war mongers haven't a clue.

Calling our troops the "infidel army"....wow...that just blows me away....guess we know where you stand when it comes to American troops, eh خدين?

[bishop]

no, it's not a bad thing.. but it wasn't worth lying to america and the world and it wasn't worth it for MANY other reasons - including the fact that the iraqis should've fought for their own freedom if they truly wanted it. bush once said that we can't be all things to all people. he also said that he was against nation building. i guess i just have that sort of spine that doesn't bend like a jellyfish just to apologize for my "leader's" mistakes.

[Punkbuster]

Quote by: bishop we thought we could get democracy in vietnam too, didn't we? look how good that worked out. waiting for the iraqis to get their act together is not a strategy, and it isn't in our country's best interests.

Uh the FRENCH were the first in the Nam quagmire and Kennedy/Johnson got us in there NIXON got us out- lets just keep history straight.

[Dieval]

Quote by: bishop no, it's not a bad thing.. but it wasn't worth lying to america and the world and it wasn't worth it for MANY other reasons - including the fact that the iraqis should've fought for their own freedom if they truly wanted it. bush once said that we can't be all things to all people. he also said that he was against nation building. i guess i just have that sort of spine that doesn't bend like a jellyfish just to apologize for my "leader's" mistakes.

First off, Iraqi's are fighting for and dieing for their country everyday. Lets not forget their sacrifices.
Second, how do you debate someone who believes in non-existent lies?

[Lilith]

I believe that we should get out of there. The sooner the better.

[Clarence]

:( What a friggin' mess.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Lilith I believe that we should get out of there. The sooner the better.

This is what you want to abandon, somthing that the people here in the US take for granted -

Quote by: New Iraqi Constitution We the people of Iraq, newly arisen from our disasters and looking with confidence to the future through a democratic, federal, republican system, are determined - men and women, old and young - to respect the rule of law, reject the policy of aggression, pay attention to women and their rights, the elderly and their cares, the children and their affairs, spread the culture of diversity and defuse terrorism. We are the people of Iraq, who in all our forms and groupings undertake to establish our union freely and by choice, to learn yesterday's lessons for tomorrow, and to write down this permanent constitution from the high values and ideals of the heavenly messages and the developments of science and human civilization, and to adhere to this constitution, which shall preserve for Iraq its free union of people, land and sovereignty. .... CHAPTER TWO: RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS PART ONE: RIGHTS FIRST: Civil and political rights. Article (14): Iraqis are equal before the law without discrimination because of sex, ethnicity, nationality, origin, colour, religion, sect, belief, opinion or social or economic status. Article (15): Every individual has the right to life and security and freedom and cannot be deprived of these rights or have them restricted except in accordance to the law and based on a ruling by the appropriate judicial body.

"the right to life"....that's something they didn't have under Saddam's rule..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...05_constit.pdf

[RickSp]

Defending the Iraqi Constitution? What a bad joke.

Flaws caught in the draft

The draft Iraqi constitution is not worth the last full measure of devotion President Bush demands of the brave men and women serving in Iraq. The proposed charter for a post-Saddam Iraq is a joke. It betrays a political amateurism and immaturity destined to shipwreck unity and democracy in Iraq. The United States long ago reached the high-water mark of the good it has done there. It should adopt the least-bad exit strategy: a punctual and orderly departure. Better a misfortune in Iraq than a calamity. Four glaring flaws bedevil the draft Iraqi document. It proclaims a cornucopia of social welfare rights more akin to a child's Christmas list than enforceable law. Its celebration of the "undisputed rules of Islam" contradicts its enshrinement of individual freedoms. Its equivalent to the United States' Bill of Rights is largely an illusion, like a munificent bequest in a pauper's will. And its empowerment of regional authority to trump national power guarantees disintegration of Iraq. A constitution earns public contempt by proclaiming utopian rights ineluctably to be honored in the breach rather than the observance. Articles 29-34 of the draft constitution are exemplary. Article 29 guarantees family bliss. "Motherhood, childhood, and old age" are protected by the state. Juveniles and youths are crowned with a right to "care" and "agreeable conditions to develop their capabilities." Children command a "right to upbringing, education and care from their parents," while parents reciprocally enjoy a "right to respect and care from their children, especially in times of want, disability or old age." And every person is laureled with a right to be free from "violence and abuse in the family, school and society." But none of these constitutional rights are plausibly enforceable in courts of law. For example, there are no manageable legal yardsticks to determine a parent has provided his child a proper upbringing or education, or the child has given due respect and care to his parents.

[mailman]

I got a box of white surrender tissues here (made by a french company in Spain), who wants some so they can wave them at terrorists?

Mailman

[ibm]

dieval, i want to believe you're debating seriously. but geez, hard for me to believe you're in your 30's. (shaking my head...)

[Osborn F Enready]

Has there been a bigger political wedge driven in this country than the war in Iraq?

This is a tool as old as man. Divide, and conquer. The Central Establishment gets stronger, and the people become more divided and fragmented. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, more than a nice gardening strategy.

The reasons for the war, flawed.
The facts used to build the case for war, flawed.
The people who voted for the war on that information, guilty.
The people who still support the war, and not the just the troops, misinformed or blind.
The people who think the war isn't breeding more terrorists, blind.
The people who don't acknowledge the the increase in central powers, and the loss of rights, blind.

All my opinion of course.

[Clarence]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Has there been a bigger political wedge driven in this country than the war in Iraq? This is a tool as old as man. Divide, and conquer. The Central Establishment gets stronger, and the people become more divided and fragmented. Sounds like a recipe for disaster, more than a nice gardening strategy. The reasons for the war, flawed. The facts used to build the case for war, flawed. The people who voted for the war on that information, guilty. The people who still support the war, and not the just the troops, misinformed or blind. The people who think the war isn't breeding more terrorists, blind. The people who don't acknowledge the the increase in central powers, and the loss of rights, blind. All my opinion of course.

Word! what are we gonna do?

[Dieval]

Quote by: ibm dieval, i want to believe you're debating seriously. but geez, hard for me to believe you're in your 30's. (shaking my head...)

Thanks for....wait, what did you do with your post besides try and insult me? What did you add to the debate? Maybe you should read the rules again before posting.

You think a repressed country being given the chance to have the freedoms we take for granted is a bad thing, I don't..

[Dieval]

Quote by: RickSp Defending the Iraqi Constitution? What a bad joke. Flaws caught in the draft

Wow, a commentary...great post..

Do you remember what rights the Iraqi people had before? Oh wait, that's right, they didn't have any.....an article shooting holes in their attempt at giving the people in the country a chance to have freedom for the first time in YEARS is real productive(that was sarcasm)....maybe if the commentary had more constructive criticism rather than just making fun of their attempt at a constitution - rather than saying they have no clue how to do something, he could have proposed a way to accomplish what they wanted - but no, just pure criticism.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Dieval Wow, a commentary...great post.. Do you remember what rights the Iraqi people had before? Oh wait, that's right, they didn't have any.....an article shooting holes in their attempt at giving the people in the country a chance to have freedom for the first time in YEARS is real productive(that was sarcasm)....maybe if the commentary had more constructive criticism rather than just making fun of their attempt at a constitution - rather than saying they have no clue how to do something, he could have proposed a way to accomplish what they wanted - but no, just pure criticism.

You really have no idea what is happening in Iraq do you? If you have any interest in become slighly less disconnected from reality you might read the review of Tony Shalib's new book "Night Draws Near."

A Harrowing Portrait of Life in Postwar Iraq

The political consequences of the continuing violence would be severe, as Mr. Shadid's sources attest. Even many of those Iraqis who were joyous at Mr. Hussein's fall and who were prepared to think the best of the Americans began to question the failure of the United States, the most powerful nation on the face of the earth, to establish order. As Mr. Shadid puts it, "Saddam had ruled for 35 years, the Americans had toppled him in less than three weeks, and relatively few of their soldiers and died in the task. How could these same Americans be so feeble in the aftermath?" As the weeks of violence turned into months, frustration turned to bitterness and resentment at what was perceived by many Iraqis as "malicious inattention or inattentive malice" on the part of the United States. Memories of the Reagan administration's support for Mr. Hussein's government during the Iran-Iraq war resurfaced, as well as grievances over the American-supported sanctions that took such a toll on the civilians. "God Curse Saddam and the Americans" became a popular graffiti. ..... For ordinary Iraqis - who lived through the repressive regime of Saddam Hussein, the harrowing losses of the Iran-Iraq war, the ravages of the Persian Gulf war of 1991 and the hardships of international sanctions - the 2003 invasion by America and the continuing insurgency represent yet another chapter in what seems like a Sisyphean litany of suffering. As for the unrelenting suicide attacks and car bombs, Mr. Shadid writes near the end of this sobering and revealing book: "Bloodshed in itself was the ambition; it was a brutal, chilling, but calculated way to produce the perception of American failure" and "they succeeded, with cold brilliance, in magnifying the sense of U.S. failure in the eyes of most Iraqis and, for that matter, in the eyes of much of the world." "It was theater," he goes on, "and people kept dying to create those indelible scenes, a portrait of a debacle designed for world consumption. The carnage itself sent the message of approaching anarchy, of the nearing of an abyss, as if it was understood that Americans could say nothing to mitigate the most recent tragedies or promise anything that would end the violence. The country was neither liberated, as Americans would have it, nor occupied, as the rest of the Arab world saw it. Iraq was subsumed in the logic of violence, ruled by men with guns."

[northtexan]

Quote by: Punkbuster Uh the FRENCH were the first in the Nam quagmire and Kennedy/Johnson got us in there NIXON got us out- lets just keep history straight.

Actually, Eisenhower got us in slightly, Kennedy kept us in minimally, and Johnson escalated, then Nixon escalated. In fact, Nixon escalated to Cambodia, which had been out of it until then, with the result that Pol Pot got his evil hands on that country. Nixon kept us in 5 years (as long as Johnson did) before downscaling, and we were still there when Nixon resigned. We were finally defeated under Ford. Nixon was the worst criminal, but Johnson is right there behind him -- they could have shared the docket had we had war-crimes trials. But Eisenhower should share some of the blame, because he got us involved when he could have let well enough alone -- but he couldn't stand seeing Ho Che Minh as the hero and leader of Vietnam. Cold-warrior Kennedy shares some of that minor blame with Eisenhower; but like with the Bay of Pigs, he inherited the project and just let it run on. Insofar as he was in the know in the assassination of Diem, however, he may have shared a bigger part of the shame. Hey, it's ancient history -- but it's still good to point fingers of blame. When I was protesting the Vietnam War, it was all so much more immediate.

[northtexan]

Quote by: Dieval This is what you want to abandon, somthing that the people here in the US take for granted - "the right to life"....that's something they didn't have under Saddam's rule.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...05_constit.pdf

Sharia law trumps most other provisions: that's something else they didn't have under Saddam.

The U.S. and U.S. oil companies control Iraqi oil: that something even Sharia law doesn't trump (at least not until the U.S. pulls out its troops, then we'll see), and definitely something they didn't have under Saddam.

If it were up to me, not only would I abandon this constitution by pulling out U.S. troops, I would have them shoot this constitution full of holes before they left. But don't worry, the Kurds WILL do exactly that in the north once the U.S. decides it's defeated, so declares victory and leaves.

[northtexan]

Quote by: Dieval First off, Iraqi's are fighting for and dieing for their country everyday. Lets not forget their sacrifices. Second, how do you debate someone who believes in non-existent lies?

I don't forget their sacrifices in fighting for and dieing for their country -- and they're doing it fairly effectively, given the toll they're taking on U.S. forces. I just want us to stop fighting them and leave.

Oh, did you mean the forces that we trained? Well, they're not fighting for their country, they're fighting for their faction, for their warlord. If they're Shia, they're fighting for their theocrat. If they're Kurd, then at least they are fighting for the country that they want, Kurdistan -- but they won't get that while we're there.

[Clarence]

Quote by: Dieval You think a repressed country being given the chance to have the freedoms we take for granted is a bad thing, I don't..

It would be nice to know for sure that the Iraqi people have been given a fair chance.
Cripes, even I pictured this scenerio when we were all debating whether we should go to war. I was only guessing, though. I mean, I'm usually considered a conspiracy, alter-news kind of guy. but couldn't they have at least planned better

[Dieval]

Iraqi President Thanks 'Heroes Who Came to Liberate Us'

WASHINGTON, Sept. 9, 2005 – Iraq's president today thanked "all the brave American Army" for its sacrifices and losses in liberating Iraq and said his country mourns the loss of American lives in exchange for Iraq's freedom. "We owe to those American heroes who came to liberate us from the worst kind of dictatorship," Jalal Talabani said at the Pentagon after meeting with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad and other officials. "Thanks to your brave Army, now Iraqi people (are free)," he said, adding that for the first time Iraqis have freedom of expression, political parties, media -- "of everything." He said "the glorious American people" have paid the price for others' freedom throughout history. "You in the United States have paid hundreds of thousands of your sons and your boys in fighting against fascism and in liberating Asian people," Talabani said. "Thanks to you, you liberated Afghanistan from the worst kind of reactionary regime; you liberated Iraq from the worst kind of dictatorship." Talabani described progress in Iraq's economy and reconstruction, but said that unfortunately the media prefers to cover negative events instead. "The situation in Iraq is not only black or negative," he said. "I am sorry to say that media was reluctant to reflect the real picture of Iraq." .... "We are supporting you in your policy in the Middle East; we are proud to be your friends," the president said. "We are proud to be your partners in fighting against terrorism, and we are grateful to you."

I think he hit the nail on the head with these lines -

" Talabani described progress in Iraq's economy and reconstruction, but said that unfortunately the media prefers to cover negative events instead.

"The situation in Iraq is not only black or negative," he said. "I am sorry to say that media was reluctant to reflect the real picture of Iraq." "

Here's some news you don't normally here about from Iraq...and it's not even all that bad, I'm sure that's to the great dismay of many of you on here..
Iraq, Afghanistan Make Progress in Education
Iraqi Army Closer to Working Independently
Iraqi Soldiers Donate to Katrina Victims
U.S.-Iraqi Teamwork Key to Reconstruction
Donations Kick Off School Days for Iraqi Kids
One Terrorist Dies, Four Detained in Samarra
Rumsfeld Defends U.S. Position in Iraq
Iraqi Soldiers Showcase Capabilities During Raids
Bush: Efforts in Iraq Require Time, Sacrifice, Resolve
Iraqi, U.S. Forces Capture Terrorists, Suspected Insurgents
Terror Suspects Killed, Captured
America Supports You: Iraqi Boy to Receive Heart Surgery in U.S.
Iraqi Police Graduate From Advanced, Specialty Courses
Democratic Process Continues in Iraq
Gunship Attack Kills Iraqi Terrorists; Bomb-Making Cache Found