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bmaestro · Feb 26, 2004, 03:54 pm

There's this right-wing political thinktank called project for a new american century http://www.newamericancentury.org that essentially asks for the government to serve a very controvercial goal of extending american power, economic interests, and security into the corners of the globe. Theres a document on this site called "Rebuilding America's Defences," found under defence and national security, written in sept. 2000, which has some interesting implications. 1st, they recognize that they need a "pearl harbor" like event to set their plan into motion. And second, they outline a strategy to build up the military and promote our economic and security interests abroad.

My question to you all is, given the names of some of the participants in this thinktank (wolfowitz, cheney, rumsfeld), does this kind of thinking rule our country? or are there enough checks and balances to keep this power at bay? Is it a bad thing to use our might for our own economic and security interests?

B

Impenitent · Feb 26, 2004, 04:43 pm

it isn't a bad thing... we are on top, we call the shots...

and no, talking doesn't do it, praying for peace doesn't do it, holding hands and singing kumbaya doesn't do it... if you want peace, kill your enemies...

that's how life works...

mlingley · Feb 27, 2004, 12:08 am

No I don't think it's ok for the U.S. to be using the rest of the world this way.

I don't think most American's really care about the rest of the world. All we care about is what goes on in our little individual bubbles. And it isn't whether it's right or not, it's who is going to stop us? Remember we're fighting a war here.. a war for freedom because these evil terrorist are trying to destroy our way of life.. GIVE ME A BREAK.

Could somebody please tell me how 911 was an attack on personal freedom? That's the rhetoric that was jammed down our throats to justify the "War on Terror"

"Peace can not be kept by force, it can only be achieved through understanding"
-Albert Einstein

eburchelli · Feb 27, 2004, 12:28 am

It's just a different name for globalization. And it's not exclusive to the US. The UN and its humanitarian organizations are working toward the same goal. The EU is part of the developement towards globalization. China by allowing foreign economic developement into that country, is working towards a time when all of the far east will be answering to her tune, but not by forced takeover. It will be economic.

This has always been the plan of globalization. A vast network of connected countries, with probably 3 main leaders, no more than four. The US, Europe (which could include Russia) and China which would include the Koreas, India, Pakistan and Indochina. There would still be pockets of individual countries, but they would be reduced to irrelevancy unless they joined one of the big 3.

bmaestro · Feb 27, 2004, 04:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,)
It's just a different name for globalization. And it's not exclusive to the US. The UN and its humanitarian organizations are working toward the same goal. The EU is part of the developement towards globalization. China by allowing foreign economic developement into that country, is working towards a time when all of the far east will be answering to her tune, but not by forced takeover. It will be economic.

This has always been the plan of globalization. A vast network of connected countries, with probably 3 main leaders, no more than four. The US, Europe (which could include Russia) and China which would include the Koreas, India, Pakistan and Indochina. There would still be pockets of individual countries, but they would be reduced to irrelevancy unless they joined one of the big 3.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I see your point, but why then is the PNAC group so focused on military strength? If its purely based on economic globalization, we wouldn't have so much need to promote our interests abroad with military force. By the way, stop thinking that globalization is a good thing, even for america. I saw one of the country's leading economists speak on this one, and he pointed out that while the mean american is helped greatly, the median american is no better off with the increase in globalization we've seen in the last 30 years. (For those of you who don't know statistics, or are unwilling to think it through, this means that the rich are far better off, while the poor are somewhat worse off (loss of jobs, etc.))

Nested parentheses... yeah..

B

Impenitent · Feb 27, 2004, 01:29 pm

fine, if you don't think it's ok for the us to be on top, knock the us off the top...

if you think the rest of the world isn't trying, you need to open your eyes

tman_ndsu08 · Feb 27, 2004, 01:33 pm

Haha...let them go try to tell people how to live their lives. I'll just laugh when they get shot.

dotcoma · Feb 27, 2004, 04:21 pm

Scary group of SOBs. They call for a "pearl harbor-like attack" to convince the people we need bigger government and TAH DAH, 9/11!!! And what's this crap about "being on top". This isn't king of the hill. You are enabling tyranny by rationalizing imperialism.

dotcoma · Feb 27, 2004, 04:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)

Could somebody please tell me how 911 was an attack on personal freedom? That's the rhetoric that was jammed down our throats to justify the "War on Terror"
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Look at the legislation that followed 9/11. If you were an alien watching all this crap from space it would appear that Bush is working for Osama bin Laden.

Impenitent · Feb 27, 2004, 05:23 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
Scary group of SOBs. They call for a "pearl harbor-like attack" to convince the people we need bigger government and TAH DAH, 9/11!!! And what's this crap about "being on top". This isn't king of the hill. You are enabling tyranny by rationalizing imperialism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

the democRATS do it with socialism
the republicans do it with defense

and yes, life is the will to power and nothing besides...

if you don't have the power, you don't have freedom...

rationaling imperialism? no, it's "hegemony" now...

enabling tyranny? keeping from being a target is more like it

dotcoma · Feb 27, 2004, 05:37 pm

The Democrats do it with tyranny. The Republicans do it with tyranny. It's all command and control. Period. Liberals should love Bush: Gun-grabbing, open borders, abortion on demand, big government...

dotcoma · Feb 27, 2004, 05:38 pm

Would you consider open borders with blanket amnesty a good defense policy? Just wondering...

Impenitent · Feb 27, 2004, 05:42 pm

I call it buying the hispanic vote but it won't work... when another attack happens we'll get action, and have no fear, they are out there plotting

dotcoma · Feb 27, 2004, 07:14 pm

Oh, so we have to wait to get attacked AGAIN before Lord Bush decided to do the most obvious thing in the wake of a terrorist attack? That makes sense. Bush 2004....

james? · Feb 27, 2004, 07:24 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
and yes, life is the will to power and nothing besides...

if you don't have the power, you don't have freedom...

rationaling imperialism? no, it's "hegemony" now...

enabling tyranny? keeping from being a target is more like it<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Life is the will to power, bottom line, no exceptions?! How can you rationalize everyone having the same perspective, especially when it's so specific. I mean, are you insane? Life is different for everyone. For me, it's the will to knowledge... fuck power, I have no right to rule anyone, no one does.

And keeping from being a target? Get real, why do you think we are a target? Because (warning: generalization) were a bunch of materialistic, imperialistic, paganistic motherfuckers who think we have some divine right of manifest destiny to the whole fucking planet. Bush 2004? How about Fuck 2004.

dotcoma · Feb 27, 2004, 07:31 pm

I can only speak for myself but I was being sarcastic about the Bush 2004 thing....

french_jew · Feb 27, 2004, 08:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,)
"Peace can not be kept by force, it can only be achieved through understanding"
-Albert Einstein<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, I hope you do understand the Sept. 11, and what it means for the West !
The project for a New American Century got it at least.

This think-tank refuses to give up.... to use the old way of hanlding that led America to face a mass murder attack.
They're saying to the West (and especially Americans) that it's time to change the way America used to handle international issues.

I think a part of Bush's governement share the opinions of this think-tank... but only a small group, and only on international issues.
Nevertheless, even about some international issues that kind of thinking might be ignore...
Here's an extract of a "The Economist"'s article on the neocons influence inside Bush's camp :

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The one area where neo-conservative influence may really prove inimical to the interests of others is Israel. Neo-cons are among Ariel Sharon's staunchest defenders. Most fear the “road map” will endanger Israel's security, and will do everything they can to stop it.

On the other hand, the map is itself an indication of the limits of their influence. If neo-cons really ran the show, as they are said to, there would almost certainly be no such map. That there is testifies to the other forces acting on Mr Bush: the State Department, the National Security Council, even Tony Blair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nathan

Comrade · Feb 27, 2004, 09:21 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (makeshiftpatriot,)
"Rebuilding America's Defences," found under defence <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

DEFENSE!!!
with an S, people!

Impenitent · Feb 28, 2004, 02:06 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (james?,)

Life is the will to power, bottom line, no exceptions?! How can you rationalize everyone having the same perspective, especially when it's so specific. I mean, are you insane? Life is different for everyone. For me, it's the will to knowledge... fuck power, I have no right to rule anyone, no one does.

And keeping from being a target? Get real, why do you think we are a target? Because (warning: generalization) were a bunch of materialistic, imperialistic, paganistic motherfuckers who think we have some divine right of manifest destiny to the whole fucking planet. Bush 2004? How about Fuck 2004.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

no exceptions.

I am not rationalizing anyone's perspective, you are expecting everyone to play dead.

will to knowledge? have you not heard "knowledge IS POWER"

rights? the only rights you have are those you TAKE FROM OTHERS

we are a target because the rest of the world is so loving and kind and good...

Impenitent · Feb 28, 2004, 02:09 am

kerry 2004... vote no on defense spending! vote no on intelligence spending! vote kerry!

drink the purple koolaid like a good democRAT...

Feb 26, 2004, 04:43 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	it isn't a bad thing... we are on top, we call the shots... and no, talking doesn't do it, praying for peace doesn't do it, holding hands and singing kumbaya doesn't do it... if you want peace, kill your enemies... that's how life works... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 27, 2004, 04:03 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
bmaestro Molten Ash Posts: 61	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,) It's just a different name for globalization. And it's not exclusive to the US. The UN and its humanitarian organizations are working toward the same goal. The EU is part of the developement towards globalization. China by allowing foreign economic developement into that country, is working towards a time when all of the far east will be answering to her tune, but not by forced takeover. It will be economic. This has always been the plan of globalization. A vast network of connected countries, with probably 3 main leaders, no more than four. The US, Europe (which could include Russia) and China which would include the Koreas, India, Pakistan and Indochina. There would still be pockets of individual countries, but they would be reduced to irrelevancy unless they joined one of the big 3.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I see your point, but why then is the PNAC group so focused on military strength? If its purely based on economic globalization, we wouldn't have so much need to promote our interests abroad with military force. By the way, stop thinking that globalization is a good thing, even for america. I saw one of the country's leading economists speak on this one, and he pointed out that while the mean american is helped greatly, the median american is no better off with the increase in globalization we've seen in the last 30 years. (For those of you who don't know statistics, or are unwilling to think it through, this means that the rich are far better off, while the poor are somewhat worse off (loss of jobs, etc.)) Nested parentheses... yeah.. B

Feb 27, 2004, 01:29 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	fine, if you don't think it's ok for the us to be on top, knock the us off the top... if you think the rest of the world isn't trying, you need to open your eyes "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 27, 2004, 04:24 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) Could somebody please tell me how 911 was an attack on personal freedom? That's the rhetoric that was jammed down our throats to justify the "War on Terror" <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Look at the legislation that followed 9/11. If you were an alien watching all this crap from space it would appear that Bush is working for Osama bin Laden.

Feb 27, 2004, 05:23 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) Scary group of SOBs. They call for a "pearl harbor-like attack" to convince the people we need bigger government and TAH DAH, 9/11!!! And what's this crap about "being on top". This isn't king of the hill. You are enabling tyranny by rationalizing imperialism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> the democRATS do it with socialism the republicans do it with defense and yes, life is the will to power and nothing besides... if you don't have the power, you don't have freedom... rationaling imperialism? no, it's "hegemony" now... enabling tyranny? keeping from being a target is more like it "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 26, 2004, 03:54 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
bmaestro Molten Ash Posts: 61	There's this right-wing political thinktank called project for a new american century http://www.newamericancentury.org that essentially asks for the government to serve a very controvercial goal of extending american power, economic interests, and security into the corners of the globe. Theres a document on this site called "Rebuilding America's Defences," found under defence and national security, written in sept. 2000, which has some interesting implications. 1st, they recognize that they need a "pearl harbor" like event to set their plan into motion. And second, they outline a strategy to build up the military and promote our economic and security interests abroad. My question to you all is, given the names of some of the participants in this thinktank (wolfowitz, cheney, rumsfeld), does this kind of thinking rule our country? or are there enough checks and balances to keep this power at bay? Is it a bad thing to use our might for our own economic and security interests? B

Feb 27, 2004, 12:08 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
mlingley Molten Ash Posts: 120	No I don't think it's ok for the U.S. to be using the rest of the world this way. I don't think most American's really care about the rest of the world. All we care about is what goes on in our little individual bubbles. And it isn't whether it's right or not, it's who is going to stop us? Remember we're fighting a war here.. a war for freedom because these evil terrorist are trying to destroy our way of life.. GIVE ME A BREAK. Could somebody please tell me how 911 was an attack on personal freedom? That's the rhetoric that was jammed down our throats to justify the "War on Terror" "Peace can not be kept by force, it can only be achieved through understanding" -Albert Einstein

Feb 27, 2004, 12:28 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	It's just a different name for globalization. And it's not exclusive to the US. The UN and its humanitarian organizations are working toward the same goal. The EU is part of the developement towards globalization. China by allowing foreign economic developement into that country, is working towards a time when all of the far east will be answering to her tune, but not by forced takeover. It will be economic. This has always been the plan of globalization. A vast network of connected countries, with probably 3 main leaders, no more than four. The US, Europe (which could include Russia) and China which would include the Koreas, India, Pakistan and Indochina. There would still be pockets of individual countries, but they would be reduced to irrelevancy unless they joined one of the big 3.

Feb 27, 2004, 01:33 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	Haha...let them go try to tell people how to live their lives. I'll just laugh when they get shot.

Feb 27, 2004, 04:21 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	Scary group of SOBs. They call for a "pearl harbor-like attack" to convince the people we need bigger government and TAH DAH, 9/11!!! And what's this crap about "being on top". This isn't king of the hill. You are enabling tyranny by rationalizing imperialism.

Feb 27, 2004, 05:37 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	The Democrats do it with tyranny. The Republicans do it with tyranny. It's all command and control. Period. Liberals should love Bush: Gun-grabbing, open borders, abortion on demand, big government...

Feb 27, 2004, 05:38 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	Would you consider open borders with blanket amnesty a good defense policy? Just wondering...

Feb 27, 2004, 05:42 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	I call it buying the hispanic vote but it won't work... when another attack happens we'll get action, and have no fear, they are out there plotting "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 27, 2004, 07:14 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	Oh, so we have to wait to get attacked AGAIN before Lord Bush decided to do the most obvious thing in the wake of a terrorist attack? That makes sense. Bush 2004....

Feb 27, 2004, 07:24 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
james? Molten Ash Location: Minnesota Posts: 84	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) and yes, life is the will to power and nothing besides... if you don't have the power, you don't have freedom... rationaling imperialism? no, it's "hegemony" now... enabling tyranny? keeping from being a target is more like it<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Life is the will to power, bottom line, no exceptions?! How can you rationalize everyone having the same perspective, especially when it's so specific. I mean, are you insane? Life is different for everyone. For me, it's the will to knowledge... fuck power, I have no right to rule anyone, no one does. And keeping from being a target? Get real, why do you think we are a target? Because (warning: generalization) were a bunch of materialistic, imperialistic, paganistic motherfuckers who think we have some divine right of manifest destiny to the whole fucking planet. Bush 2004? How about Fuck 2004.

Feb 27, 2004, 07:31 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	I can only speak for myself but I was being sarcastic about the Bush 2004 thing....

Feb 27, 2004, 08:18 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
french_jew Molten Ash Posts: 43	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (mlingley,) "Peace can not be kept by force, it can only be achieved through understanding" -Albert Einstein<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, I hope you do understand the Sept. 11, and what it means for the West ! The project for a New American Century got it at least. This think-tank refuses to give up.... to use the old way of hanlding that led America to face a mass murder attack. They're saying to the West (and especially Americans) that it's time to change the way America used to handle international issues. I think a part of Bush's governement share the opinions of this think-tank... but only a small group, and only on international issues. Nevertheless, even about some international issues that kind of thinking might be ignore... Here's an extract of a "The Economist"'s article on the neocons influence inside Bush's camp : --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The one area where neo-conservative influence may really prove inimical to the interests of others is Israel. Neo-cons are among Ariel Sharon's staunchest defenders. Most fear the “road map” will endanger Israel's security, and will do everything they can to stop it. On the other hand, the map is itself an indication of the limits of their influence. If neo-cons really ran the show, as they are said to, there would almost certainly be no such map. That there is testifies to the other forces acting on Mr Bush: the State Department, the National Security Council, even Tony Blair. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nathan

Feb 27, 2004, 09:21 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (makeshiftpatriot,) "Rebuilding America's Defences," found under defence <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> DEFENSE!!! with an S, people! Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!

Feb 28, 2004, 02:06 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (james?,) Life is the will to power, bottom line, no exceptions?! How can you rationalize everyone having the same perspective, especially when it's so specific. I mean, are you insane? Life is different for everyone. For me, it's the will to knowledge... fuck power, I have no right to rule anyone, no one does. And keeping from being a target? Get real, why do you think we are a target? Because (warning: generalization) were a bunch of materialistic, imperialistic, paganistic motherfuckers who think we have some divine right of manifest destiny to the whole fucking planet. Bush 2004? How about Fuck 2004.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> no exceptions. I am not rationalizing anyone's perspective, you are expecting everyone to play dead. will to knowledge? have you not heard "knowledge IS POWER" rights? the only rights you have are those you TAKE FROM OTHERS we are a target because the rest of the world is so loving and kind and good... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 28, 2004, 02:09 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	kerry 2004... vote no on defense spending! vote no on intelligence spending! vote kerry! drink the purple koolaid like a good democRAT... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...