Should a rich person help a poor person just because they're rich?

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 That's more than enough society for me.

Be sure to draw a distinction between civil society and political society. The two are very different, and the one languishes due to the prevalence of the other.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: oranged How do the people get rich, the money has to come from somewhere, it comes from leaching of other economies, and poor people. (buy=shop/by=close to or through, not trying to be mean, just so you know.)

Oh, now I get it. Thanks, I've never even heard that there were seperate spellings for buy and by!

How do the people get rich: the market. Here's how it works: first, there is a demand for a good or service. Some very clever person invents some way to make this good or provide this service such that the costs of production are lower than the market equilibrium price. That's it.

Yes, obviously the money comes from somewhere as you can't create wealth from nothing (IE, there is a finite amount of wealth in the world). People demand that good or service and they trade money for it. Willingly. They're not force by the government to do so. They trade for it because they want it.

[Morgan_Freeman]

At any given time, there is a finite amount of wealth, if that's what you mean. Wealth is ever-increasing.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: amana1man I do not think this person is a minority. I think tax rate ahould go up exponentially. Lets say 1% for each 20 thousand. If you make 100,000.00 per year your rate would be 5% with no exemptions, no house write offs. You pay the 5% tax. If you made $900,000.00 your tax rate would be 45%. Stop at say 50% tax. I would not happen because those people in congress are wealthy and would not pass any bill which would take money from there pocket. Just like price gouging by oil compaines. Bush will not do anything about it since he most likely profits by you paying more for gas.

That works for me.

Guess what? I only have to pay 1% tax under your system because I only made $10000 last year and the rest of my income is in the form of tax free stocks, bonds, savings accounts, etc.

IE, you can see how easily people can get around an income tax.


Income taxes are the worst possible way.



What the country needs is a flat consumption tax.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman At any given time, there is a finite amount of wealth, if that's what you mean. Wealth is ever-increasing.

Of course, it depends on how you define wealth, but over any given amount of time, there is always the same amount of wealth in the world.

Sure, you can say that there is always an increasing supply of money simply because of inflation, which would be wrong.

But if you adjusted for inflation, there is always a finite amount of things that have value that you can trade for.


It's just one big trading game where things simply go back and forth in different combinations. But the total sum of all the trades is always the same.

[RVonse]

Quote by: YumTum
There are problems agree in that there can be a reduction in incentive if every1 is forced to be equal, but it is in the interest of a society as whole to have the foresight to decrease the poverty gap

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Why? .

So we don't have a riot or a revolution here in America. Whether you are Democrat, Republican, or Libratarian it is in your best interests to make sure our country does not riot into chaos. And if the gap widens any more thats exactly where we are headed. People who are poverty stricken can only take so much before violence becomes preferable to them. Look into your history books and you will see how humans have acted generations before us.

Wake up.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: RVonse Quote by: YumTum There are problems agree in that there can be a reduction in incentive if every1 is forced to be equal, but it is in the interest of a society as whole to have the foresight to decrease the poverty gap So we don't have a riot or a revolution here in America. Whether you are Democrat, Republican, or Libratarian it is in your best interests to make sure our country does not riot into chaos. And if the gap widens any more thats exactly where we are headed. People who are poverty stricken can only take so much before violence becomes preferable to them. Look into your history books and you will see how humans have acted generations before us. Wake up.

LOL!

That's the dilusion that all poor people are under. They think that since they have numbers they can just rise up against the rich.

Nope.


One half of the poor can always be paid to kill the other half.

[RVonse]

Quote by: Pooeypants
You mean there are enough scholarships to cover as many people as we currently have at University? I'm afraid that isn't quite true.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman No, that's not what I meant. I meant that without government interference, the supply of college degrees will meet the demand for them. .

Morgan, I agree that capitalism is a very efficient means for distributing supply and demand but your argument falls down with eduction. Simply because education is so very important in todays society. You can not have enough educated people, more is always better.

Show me how having more stupid people around would serve society better.

Education is one of the smartest values of money, whether it is being spent by individuals or government. It is very hard to argue that taking money away from wealthy individuals to educate more of society would not benefit all of society.

[RVonse]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 LOL! That's the dilusion that all poor people are under. They think that since they have numbers they can just rise up against the rich. Nope. One half of the poor can always be paid to kill the other half.

You desparately need to pull out a history book and see just how people have reacted to the rich-poor divide in the past. The most recent example I can think of is Nazi Germany right before WWII.

But there are countless other examples thoughout history.

[amana1man]

Quote by: Pale RIder I see that you put very little, if any thought into exactly how this "rich person" came to have a crop in the first place.

I seen in the news paper where one Iowa farm recieved some $750000.00 from the government. Do you think it fine for already "rich person" to recieve money like this from our government. The newspaper listed 10 farms in my area which recieced over one quarter million each.

The roofers, carpenters, and masons don't speak much, if any english, but they are making between 15 and 25 dollars per hour. Most of the contractors were the guys that he hired as roofers, carpenters, and masons abut 5 years back.

In Milan Missouri some 25 Mexican's lived in one 5 room home. Local people say only a few work. Tama Iowa, number of Mexican's were rounded up and deported, article said many worked as dish washers and made $3.00 and $4.00 an hour. Des Moines Iowa, Iowa's largest meth ring broken up. Leader was a illegal Mexican who escaped back to his home country.

It is hard to keep the border secure because those people smell success up here and they wan't some of it so bad that they are willing to take any chance to get some of it.

Yes that is true, factories in the USA make problem worse by building in Mexico and paying insufficient wages. Orange grove owners in Ca. want the border crossers so they have workers. I seen on television that pay was inadequate and the Mexicans were forced to work from first light until dark. Not only adults but children. This is child labor and exploitation of Mexican people.

It is obvious that you aren't in business for yourself. I agree that people who are genuinely disabled should get help if they need it. All to often though, people who are slightly disabled try to game the system and clog it. The president of my college had no legs. Was he disabled? He didn't think so. Sounds to me like you are one of the ones sitting around in your failure blaming everyone but the one who is actually responsible for where you are.

I for 24 years worked as a die setter at Amana Refrigeration. I have been disabled since 1985 but did this job. The previous owners of Amana, Rayethon and Goodman Holdings followed the guidlines set down by my doctor and followed Americans with Disabilities Act regulations. Amana was bought by Maytag and my department was closed. I was put standing in one spot on a assembly line. Maytag did not adhere to the Americans with Disabilities Act regulations. Because of this I got a superficial thrombophlebitis in 2003.
One of my restrictions was that I could not stand in one place for extended amount of time due to a blood clot in the Iliofemoral vein. This happened when my knee was shattered in a auto accident. I can not walk very far because of pain and swelling of the knee but was able to do my job while dealing with pain and swelling for 18 years. The clot is blocking flow of bloods 99%. Maytag would not take be off the assembly line even after I had the blood clot so in July 2003 I quit. Yes I did contact my congressman and OSHA. Both told me I must get a private lawyer because they did not deal with this sort of thing. Did the American with disabilities act help me. NO. Yes I would rather be working and earning my living. I am hundreds dollars behind in my bills and will likely be the new homeless in America so why should I not be very critical of what is going on in government and business today. I have two sons which are now supporting me. They can not find well paying jobs. They applied at a local factory (where they got no job) and came home telling of dozens of people working there which could speak no English. Point made.

[RVonse]

Quote by: amana1man . Yes I did contact my congressman and OSHA. Both told me I must get a private lawyer because they did not deal with this sort of thing. Did the American with disabilities act help me. NO.

Amana1man, it sounds like they have really put you through the ringer. This probably won't make you feel any better but Maytag hasn't been doing well lately with their shareholders either, seems they just got bought out by Whirlpool. So the shareholders aren't any happier than the employees.

I would not give up yet, there are a lot of lawyers that work on commision out there. A similar situation occured with a friend of mine who got hurt on the job and they not only didn't pay workman's compensation but they fired him over it as well. He got the same story from the government that you got. He had absolutely no means but he got a lawyer on commision and it took many years but in the end he won the cause. The lawyer ended up taking most of it but he at least got the satisfaction of seeing them responsible for following the law.

It sounds like you have a winning case if you can find someone to fight it for you. They should not be allowed to get away with this.

[ibm]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman The presence of a "gap" is not the same thing as the "poor getting poorer". I am a big fan of that "gap" -- it means the sky's the limit. Liberals who loath this gap are simply basing their politics on envy. I am well aware that it is that popular opinion that the "poor are getting poorer", and there there is no end to the supply of bureaucrats, victicrats, professional whiners, and self-loathing liberals who will doctor the evidence any way they can to make this appear to be the case. It simply isn't true. If it were, then how do you explain the millions of people all over the world clamoring to get into the US?

morgan, you point is taken. but - pay attention to what i said, too, please. i said and meant a WIDENING gap.

the gap in itself is not necesasrily problematic, but a widening one sure is. and as far as i know, the pace has been on the rise in recent years.

btw, you need to rethink the logic of your last sentence imo.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Pooeypants The Biotech industry is very related to the Medical. Are you saying that you can become a doctor without getting an MD?

The only requirement I know of to be a doctor is to have a license (yet again a government creation). I was assuming you could still work in the field without this though. I have no idea what requirements there are to get the license, but working with biotechnology doesn't seem the same as being a doctor. Maybe it really does take years to learn how to please various government regulatory agencies if you're designing medicines?

Isn't it interesting that the institution you expect to help you is the one that may be legally denying you from working in the industry?

They could simplify this whole process with one simple law - hold people accountable for whatever harm they do to others (depending partly on intent). You shouldn't specifically need a license to practice medicine though. We've had some "faith healers" run out of business, though it wasn't even implied that any of the customers felt they had been wronged in the process.

But anyway, I'm not very familiar with the medical industry and it's requirements (or government requirements for it) but at least in aerospace/electronics/computers there isn't really a need for a degree, if you can demonstrate you're a competent employee and can keep the employer happy. A degree helps get your foot in the door but it's not too difficult to start as a technician and work your way up to an engineer if you feel motivated enough to learn the field, which doesn't require a university to accomplish.

Wait, you're saying that a child should suffer because their parent's lack of planning? Or whatever mistakes their parents make? That they shouldn't have a chance at higher education because of that? Not exactly a level playing field is it?

Yes, it's a perfectly level playing field. If parents make a "mistake", as you put it, they are responsible for this. To place other people responsible for actions they had no control over would, and does, create an uneven playing field in that there's little benefit to being responsible for your actions. This promotion of irresponsibility is what drags the system down, in that it's similar to an insurance policy where people don't directly see the costs of their actions and find it easier to abuse the system.

In what way would painting my house brown, benefit society? How much benefits are there? How much does it affect me? Would it leave me unable to feed myself? Would I have to commit suicide because my house was brown?

It might raise the property value of your home to live in an area with matching colored houses. Yes, it wouldn't be much of a benefit but mostly I was trying to say that just because a majority of people feel they benefit from something, doesn't guarantee it doesn't come at the expense of the minority. In the U.S. we had slavery for a long time. Maybe a majority of the people felt it was beneficial to them but that doesn't mean it's a system that was desirable to implement because of the costs to the minority.

I think you've failed to understand but I'll explain again. I need a BSc inorder to work as just a bog standard lab technician in Biotech. I know this because I'm currently doing industrial placement with Reckitt Benckiser. I'm in a Microlab and everyone I know that works in a position which deals with microbes and controlled drugs has a BSc. No wait, there are two people without degrees, one cleaning lady and another one does media preparation & stock ordering.

Well then you might have a second thing to complain about regarding government involvement. There seems no need for an engineer designing drugs to hold a degree. These drugs, I'm almost certain, are required to comply with government regulations in being tested so isn't it redundant to set a standard to which the drugs must function, and then also require those drugs to be developed in a specific manner as well?

It's nice to hear a success story like that but the fact is, what you're talking about happens to very few people. Giving everyone, be they from middle or working class, a chance to get higher education will help to level the playing field. You may not like it because you got a lucky break.

I don't like the current education system much because I managed to acquire an outside viewpoint of it and find that it is providing most people a disservice (from my viewpoint).

This isn't even novel in that there are many examples of effectively homeschooled children excelling in various fields over what the public system provides.

I went to public schools but most all the valuable information I learned that provides a decent lifestyle (I'm not rich but have a comfortable life) was from books and work outside the public system. And so I can rather safely say there are other ways to learn, if people got a bit creative and motivated to find these. Overall, you'd very likely find it results in a more useful educational foundation and it's tailored to what you enjoy as well.

Have you ever wondered, if everyone got rich like you did, who would be at the bottom to operate the "machines"? Who would clean the toilets? Ah, I guess that's another reason to maintain this Rich/Poor divide.

I'm not rich but can afford to raise a family in a middle class lifestyle without needing to worry much about finding work or working continuously full-time. It's the result of where I placed my priorities. I admit it was partly luck being interested in things that ended up providing a decent living but not entirely. A lot of it was listening to and mulling over advice from people who had some knowledge of things.

And regarding the cleaning the toilets. Ok, let's assume noone cleaned toilets .... how much do you think someone who had the "skills" to do so would be paid?

I agree we need a better education system but relying on government to provide it is a mistake in that there is no magic genie government able to supply all our needs. Government is merely a tool to forcibly control people. When you pass a new law to supply something, all it does it enable police to come to your house and force you to do something you could have already done for yourself. There's a common misperception that somehow government can freely create these things, but next time you're thinking of a new law, imagine if you were the person with the gun that had to enforce it and see if you might change your mind. Just because some other police officer has to do the dirty work of enforcing it doesn't mean it's any more desirable.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Of course, it depends on how you define wealth, but over any given amount of time, there is always the same amount of wealth in the world.

So what am I doing when I build a TV? I'm creating wealth out of nothing.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Sure, you can say that there is always an increasing supply of money simply because of inflation, which would be wrong.

No, I mean that there is an ever-increasing amount of wealth, not money.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 It's just one big trading game where things simply go back and forth in different combinations. But the total sum of all the trades is always the same.

No way. In any trade, value is created. If I have $300 and you have a TV you want to sell for $300, and we exchange them, then we are both richer.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: ibm the gap in itself is not necesasrily problematic, but a widening one sure is. and as far as i know, the pace has been on the rise in recent years.

What's wrong with a widening gap?

Quote by: ibm btw, you need to rethink the logic of your last sentence imo.

What's wrong with the logic?

[SteveA]

So what am I doing when I build a TV? I'm creating wealth out of nothing.

It's surprising (and sad to see) that sometimes people don't always understand this. They assume you can only get rich at someone elses expense, not realizing that it's people creating the wealth that improve all our lives.

(Yes, sometimes wealth is stolen instead of created but that's why we should get government back on track in just protecting against this instead of initiating it. I'd hazard a guess some of the richest people in the world actually used government actions as a way to steal this wealth, yet people complaining about this want to allow the government to steal more instead of fixing the root problem)

[amana1man]

Guess what? I only have to pay 1% tax under your system because I only made $10000 last year and the rest of my income is in the form of tax free stocks, bonds, savings accounts, etc.
The above was wrote by someone. That is my point, no loop holes. You pay a tax on every dollar of income. Someone wrote, What the country needs is a flat consumption tax. This will hurt only people who earn min. wages and people who live on social security. We are getting gouged by oil compaines, insurance compaines and our elected officials look the other way.

[amana1man]

by: Pale RIder I see that you put very little, if any thought into exactly how this "rich person" came to have a crop in the first place. It is obvious that you aren't in business for yourself.

I started working in a logging camp when I was 15 years old. When I was 16 I lied about my age and worked in a saw mill. In 1975 I started a roofing business which I sold in 1979 because I wanted a pay check each week that I could count on. I started at Amana Refrigeration jan. 1980 and worked there for 24 years. I don't know how much I paid in to social security but aim to try to get disability. When healthy people who burnt there minds out with crack, asid and cocane get social security than why should I not try to get it. By the way the college professer with no legs has an degree in teaching. I done manual labor all my life since I started working at 15. To he he is not disabled because he can do his job with no legs. Could I dig a ditch with no legs?

And yes I may of still have been able to do my job but Maytag, the new owners give me a job which they knew I could not do. The Workforce Development lady said it was because I was an insurance risk. Yes I hope Ralph Hake pres of Maytag and Terry Shook gets fired. At least Hake won't get his huge bonus check. Yes I did contact a lawyer about Amana and getting the shaft. I was told my charges leveled at Amana and Amana nurse were very hard to prove. I went so far as to get a medical opinion about it and was told there was no conclusive way to determine if I got the blood clot while at on the job at Amana. I had reported my problems to the nurse at Amana who said my job would not be the source of pain and swelling of the leg. A state health nurse told me that it was my job which was causing knee pain weeks before I seen Amana nurse.
Now I am the new poor in this country. Last night I eat Pears which my wife canned 22 years ago. Got some 20 year old pickles and some 6 year old beets also.
A example of governments lack of helping the poor. When hit by car and off work for a year I applied for welfare. I owned very little but had around $3000.00 in saving bonds. First I was told I could not apply as long as I had then. When they were gone I reapplied and was told my vehicle was too nice and worth too much. It was a 10 year old Jeep. Without a means of paying any bills I called a nother welfare worker in next county over. When I told her the problem she ask do you have the vehicle paid for. No I said I owe some $1500.00 on it. Than tell that lady to check her facts because she can not declare that vehicle a resourse. Thanks to this person I got welfare for the remaining 6 months or so. Enought, life goes on as one of the hurricane victoms said.

[SteveA]

I don't see much of a difference between taxing income or your savings, as you spend it, except the consumption tax is more of a one shot tax on savings, because any savings spent after it would be taxed.

I think overall, though these fixed % tax rates sound like great ideas, it's more for show IMO because if they really had the desire to create a relatively equal tax rate for everyone, it could already be done under the current system without adding yet another method to tax people. I might be too cynical but who's to say once they add a new federal sales tax somehow income taxes reemerge or they play games with taxing some things at one rate and other things at a different rate etc.

The point is that politicians don't need to wait for a new form of taxation to be created to make tax rates more equitable, if there was truly the motivation/ability, so I remain skeptical until some good faith can be built up before adding yet another form of taxes. It seems more a way to sidetrack things into something that truly is even more difficult to accomplish than cleaning up some of the mess already created. Also, sales taxes seem to require more labor and bookkeeping than income taxes. Most people can relatively easily calculate what they earn but it's difficult to calculate how much you spend because it goes to such a wide variety of things, so wouldn't that seem to require even more federal oversight of economic transactions to keep track of all purchases/sales and enforce these taxes as opposed to just assuring employers accurately reported employee income? (the majority of people work under this scenario)

... Thanks to this person I got welfare for the remaining 6 months or so. Enought, life goes on as one of the hurricane victoms said.

I don't totally oppose social programs but they should be limited in time and scope to help with uncontrollable bad luck like this. Even then though, I believe this should be done by the states independently of the federal government, so that states must remain somewhat competitive in this regard.

A friend of mine had a similar situation. He ended up out of work with a wife and two children and tried to get some temporary assistance but was rejected. (Meanwhile other people are living half their life on these services).

Though I want to see a lot of public programs cut or removed, that should also include a reduction in the overhead you're paying during your working career. It seems like taxes remain the same or go up, while returns on these drop ... so I'm not certain where the resources are going. As long as we're still expected to pay for these systems, it doesn't seem unrealistic to expect them to be available to some extent when you need them.

[ibm]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman What's wrong with a widening gap? What's wrong with the logic?

i've said this before. again, if the gap is widened to a certain degree, a society will come to an unrest and a riot/revolution is bound to happen. often times it means a war of some sort, and war means destruction, waste and recession. thousands of years of human history prove this again and again, the u.s. (a country that is 200 some years young) is of no exception. our current society and its structure may be able to withstand the gap to a certain degree, just like the levees in new orleans can take a cat3 hurricane. but when katrina hits, the levees would ultimately break and the city will have to be rebuilt. i’m not suggesting that our country is gonna see a major riot any time soon, but the current trend truly is worrisome and troublesome.

the logic problem in that statement of yours, where you asked why so many people (although i’m not sure about the “millions”) keep coming to the u.s., is that it just proves there were poorer people in other parts of the world. it doesn’t prove here at home the poorer ain’t getting poorer.

and btw, richer and poorer, one has to put it into perspective. it is a relation, something relative mathematically that is.