Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:07 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

To say that I own this and society can't tell me what to do with it is absurd. I don't own it unless society tells me I own it in the first place.

So why is "society's" judgement about what I own somehow superior to my own? Furthermore, where do I go to find out what I own and what I don't?

Also, since I am a member of "society", that must mean I get to decide what other people own.
So basically what you're saying is that everyone but the person concerned gets to decide what that person owns.

For this to hold, you must first assert that individuals are slaves of society. At what point did society gain ownership of me? If you and me are on a desert island, do you own me? If we're a group of ten people, does that group own me?

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

Capitalism does not exist without a strong war-based economy and government.

Preposterous. Are you even going to *try* to produce some evidence for this?

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

Corporations do not exist without government. They are created by government.

That's correct. What does this have to do with capitalism?

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ibm

in more plain english, if the richer gets richer and the poorer becomes poorer

.... something that can never happen in a capitalist society.

ibm · Sep 7, 2005, 05:10 pm

morgan, i think gorgo was just trying to point out the reality but not necessarily saying it is the way it should be. and his assessment has certain truth in it.

ibm · Sep 7, 2005, 05:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

.... something that can never happen in a capitalist society.

so in your opinion, is today's america (i mean the u.s.) a capitalism country or not?

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

It may or may not be absurd, but it is a fact. Try to tell someone that you own my computer. Who's going to stop you from taking it? The Libertarian Party? von Mises? No. Gummint. Like it or not, they say what you own and don't own. You may wish to change that, but that's the way that it is.

You seem to be operating on the principle of "might makes right". That just because govenment has a lot of guns, they get to "decide" who owns what.

So you've basically rendered the term "own" meaningless. You've replaced it with the word "have".

The whole point of ownership is that it is objective. That things rightfully belong to you, no matter who currently has them. If you do away with this concept of property, then you do away with all of human civilization, back to the dawn of time.

Apparently, you want s back in the jungle, picking bananas off trees.

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

Again, that may be, but that is what it is now. If you'd like a society where government decides fewer things, then that's another discussion and would probably be some form of socialism.

This is just over the top. Socialism has less government control than capitalism? It's clear now that you're purposely ignoring the facts and basic definitions in favor of some bizarre mental construct you've cooked up.

Gorgo · Sep 7, 2005, 05:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

That's correct. What does this have to do with capitalism?

I can't disagree with you, but many people say that what we have in the U.S. now is capitalism and a "free market." I know it isn't free, and if it isn't capitalism I can't argue with that. I was not arguing anything, only stating my observation about the present system. Government decides who owns what.

Gorgo · Sep 7, 2005, 05:18 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

For this to hold, you must first assert that individuals are slaves of society. At what point did society gain ownership of me?

Precisely at the point that someone decided that profit was more important than people. When someone decided to fool the public into thinking that we had a "free market" and "freedom."

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:18 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ibm

so in your opinion, is today's america (i mean the u.s.) a capitalism country or not?

A a scale of 1 to 10, I give it a 6. Whereas most societies in history have been a 2 or 3.

**Pooeypants** · Sep 7, 2005, 05:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

Forcible redistribution of wealth is not "helping", and its not the reason that this country was founded, or any society in history was formed.

Why isn't it helping? I am able to go to University because the citizens of Britain have paid their taxes and helped to pay my fees. I am able to have free healthcare treatment because everyone has chipped in for me. How is this disadvantageous? What exactly is wrong with that?

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:20 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

Government decides who owns what.

You mean they decide who has what. Ownership is another thing entirely.

Gorgo · Sep 7, 2005, 05:20 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

You seem to be operating on the principle of "might makes right". That just because govenment has a lot of guns, they get to "decide" who owns what.

No, that is what the U.S. was built on. And most other countries. I'm not saying that is the right way to do things, just saying how it is. Any improvement would be some kind of socialism.

Gorgo · Sep 7, 2005, 05:21 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

This is just over the top. Socialism has less government control than capitalism? It's clear now that you're purposely ignoring the facts and basic definitions in favor of some bizarre mental construct you've cooked up.

Then enlighten me. Socialism is a democratic system where the people own and benefit from the means of production. What is capitalism?

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:22 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Pooeypants

Why isn't it helping? I am able to go to University because the citizens of Britain have paid their taxes and helped to pay my fees. I am able to have free healthcare treatment because everyone has chipped in for me. How is this disadvantageous? What exactly is wrong with that?

It's wrong because people have been coerced into paying for you. You've replaced a slightly disadvantagious situation with a dubiously advantageous and morally corrupt one.

Moreoever, its a huge net loss because socialist government systems generate massive waste, stifle the economy, and all but end innovation.

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

No, that is what the U.S. was built on. And most other countries. I'm not saying that is the right way to do things, just saying how it is. Any improvement would be some kind of socialism.

No, an improvement would be a libertarian society.

How in the heck can you say that a decrease in government coercion would lead to a socialism, which is defined by massive government coercion?

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

Then enlighten me. Socialism is a democratic system where the people own and benefit from the means of production. What is capitalism?

A system where everything is owned by individuals.

Mike T · Sep 7, 2005, 05:25 pm

:rolleyes: If you can get enough people to agree with you, then you should be able to lower your tax bill by 5 or 6 percent.

ibm · Sep 7, 2005, 05:26 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

No, that is what the U.S. was built on. And most other countries. I'm not saying that is the right way to do things, just saying how it is. Any improvement would be some kind of socialism.

gorgo, so i did interpret your intent correctly?

anyways, how's any improvement would be socialism of some sort? would you expand it a bit?

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:27 pm

Oopsie. Bye-bye, Gorgo.

ibm · Sep 7, 2005, 05:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

A a scale of 1 to 10, I give it a 6. ...

so is it the other part of 4 that keeps the rich getting richer and the poor poorer? because no matter how you "rate" it, in my observation this is a fact.

Morgan_Freeman · Sep 7, 2005, 05:40 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ibm

so is it the other part of 4 that keeps the rich getting richer and the poor poorer?

That's entirely possible.

Quote:

Quote by: ibm

because no matter how you "rate" it, in my observation this is a fact.

Do you have some evidence to back this up?

Sep 7, 2005, 05:10 pm	#43 (permalink) (top)
ibm Igneous Magma Posts: 672	morgan, i think gorgo was just trying to point out the reality but not necessarily saying it is the way it should be. and his assessment has certain truth in it. economic left/right: -3.38 social libertarian/authoritarian: -3.59

Sep 7, 2005, 05:27 pm	#58 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	Oopsie. Bye-bye, Gorgo. "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Sep 7, 2005, 05:25 pm	#56 (permalink) (top)
Mike T Free James Brown Location: West of Cowtown, Kansas Posts: 3	:rolleyes: If you can get enough people to agree with you, then you should be able to lower your tax bill by 5 or 6 percent.