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Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 10:02 am

I was thinking, there is a lot of libertarian here who dream of a country with no state, where they could live their Utopia ...

Haiti is now pretty much a stateless country, and is living a revolution ...

Why don't you all go there to make your utopist society, what stop you from doing so ??

It is a gave a golden opportunity !!!

You will never have a better one in USA ...

Impenitent · Feb 25, 2004, 10:10 am

island nations in the state of utopian revolution? they have had decades to move to cuba but they lack the courage of their convictions... but there is a better chance of becoming the next castro in haiti than cuba...

dotcoma · Feb 25, 2004, 10:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
I was thinking, there is a lot of libertarian here who dream of a country with no state, where they could live their Utopia ...

Haiti is now pretty much a stateless country, and is living a revolution ...

Why don't you all go there to make your utopist society, what stop you from doing so ??

It is a gave a golden opportunity !!!

You will never have a better one in USA ...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh, I get it. Love or leave it. I consider myself a libertarian but not a violent anarchist (although I'd prefer anarchy to tyrannical police state).

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 10:18 am

Well you like anarchy ? go to Haiti !!
Everything is to be done here, it is the best opportunity you have ??

Or you are too comfortable in you authoritarian state ???

dotcoma · Feb 25, 2004, 10:30 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
Well you like anarchy ? go to Haiti !!
Everything is to be done here, it is the best opportunity you have ??

Or you are too comfortable in you authoritarian state ???<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Never said I liked anarchy. You sound like someone in 1930s Germany defending the Fatherland against its critics...

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 10:36 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
(although I'd prefer anarchy to tyrannical police state).<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I still don't understand why Haiti is not the perfect place for libertarians to start the utopist society ...

We want no state, no governement, but just as long as every one do as I want and do not harm me ....

Haiti have no state, no laws today. Artibonite is not that violent as the rebels have already controlled the region !!

These people are eager for change ?? Why would'nt go there ?
It fit perfectly your ideals no ?

Or you like better the comfoort of your authoritarian state ...

Feb 25, 2004, 11:00 am

And one wonders why no honest civil intellectual discussion is possible.. given all of these strawmen, mischaracterizations, and essential dishonesty it is no surprise progress does not occur. When ideologues are not willing to even consider any views other than their own, all of the facts and reason that contradicts their ill conceived assumptions, or any thing at all outside of the very narrow blinders they choose to wear, necessarily nothing worthwhile will result.

And for the record I am not even a libertarian, I am simply commenting on the anti-intellectual, anti-reason, uncivil, and dishonest behaviors so very apparent here.

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 11:04 am

LOL. I asked a simple question, the only answer I had is that one do not like violent anarchy ...

Why would it be better in a libertarian Utopia ? Why Haiti is not a place for it ??

But it is easier to attack me than answer ...

Feb 25, 2004, 11:27 am

Pointing out that you employ dishonest tactics, errors in reasoning, and strawman tactics is not an attack on you, it is simply stating the facts. Had you wanted honest discussion you would not have mischaracterized libertarianism nor would you have begun with your false premise that violence is the utopian dream of libertarians.

Try honesty, civility, and reason and you will find that discussion can occur. Continue to pretend that your strawman argument represents those you clearly hate, and you will find that they do not defend that strawman position FOR IT IS NOT THEIRS. You will also find that individuals such as myself, will continue to call you on your tactics and pretenses.

But of course it is easier to attack strawman positions of your own creation than to be civil, honest, and reasonable.

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 11:32 am

Maybe that I did not made myself clear ... I only willing to see libertarian correct me on my view of their beliefs... and I never stated I associated libertarianism with violence . Bu they don't answer as I see.

As for a good discussion based on arguments al all ...

Well if you are seeking that here you are quite more patien than I am . If I want any good debate, it is certainly not here I will come.

From what I see of this board, It is principally about screaming louder than the last poster, not reading other post, or start thread about non-sense, racist belief, discriminative behavior etc...

I principally use this place as a entertainment . A humor show sorta .
If you don't like it , just pass your way and go scream somewhere esle ...

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 12:57 pm

I see no one want to get into this debate ...

Yeah to the revolution ... as long as I can get all the advantages and no inconvenients ...

leo · Feb 25, 2004, 01:55 pm

bentodd · Feb 25, 2004, 02:25 pm

I do not believe Libertarians should go to haiti because first thing it is not America and trust me we do love America. Haiti is in the middle of a revolution and will probably be succeded by a dictator. I would not give up my right to vote for anything.

I think the biggest misconception about Libertarians is that we are trying to create a basicly lawless state or Utopia. This will never happen here but what we are relley trying to do is drasticly reduce the size and wastefulness of the government.

Example: Ending the war on drugs. Not because we want to see people strung out on the streets of small towns, but because we have spent billions upon billions of dollars and have not been able to reduce drug use in America. The only thing the war on drugs has succeded in is ruining millions of peoples lives, and creating a black market which is the reason for the high cost of drugs and the crime associated with drugs. End the war on drugs and we will drasticly reduce crime.

Example: Privatizing social security. I am 22 years old and I know I will never see a cent from social security. If all the money I have paid into SS was put into a privat interest earning account I would be a millionar by the time I retired. SS is a pyrmaid scheme which is illegal for private people to do.

Hope this helps,

Benjamin Todd

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 02:39 pm

Thanks Benjamin, I appreciate yours tought and I uderstand the point you make while not agreeing on some points, That the type of Answer I would like to see here.

But as far as I know, There are many types of libertarianism . I would label as a Minarchist , if you don't mind.

But I was thinking of the arnarcho-communist, who went and fought in the spanish civil war. Those people went there because they beleived in their ideals and wanted to help. This was a violent environnement . But they were REALLY acting like there ideals.

But what I see from some libertarian here is a blind faith in their ideals , but absolutely no will to change thing are to leave their comfort to make thing change.

I think every political system have its advantage . I also think we, as a society, should try to get to a system wich would include the best of all system, as much as possible.

The polarization of the beliefs here discourage me ....

I think to stir stuff a bit could help, and trolling here is so fun

As I said elsewhere in this board ... I LOVE sarcasm ..

joegvb · Feb 25, 2004, 02:55 pm

Look at the news tonight about Haiti and then decied if you want to go there. It is a violent and crazy place at the present moment. The goverenment is is choas and the govenment has been overrun. People in Haiti are killing people left and right.

As posted in a Newspaper Haiti's President has said "i urgently appleal for the world's help to avert a bloodbath"

This sounds just like a utopia doesnt it!

More from me later,

JOE

koi · Feb 25, 2004, 03:01 pm

why should libertarians move in the first place? we live in our own cities around the world, where we hope to further educate those around us. But moving to an island commune we may truly prove that "libertarianism works" but at what cost? how will a libertarian island provide and compete against the globalized corporations? yes, we could try to be self sufficient, but that slows progress and prevents overall diversification of the market.
I am also rather put-off by your stance against libertarianism and that you would even consider it possible that they would condone the use of violence to achieve their goals.

Sandy · Feb 25, 2004, 03:29 pm

We had a Libertarian board a couple of years ago. Maybe we should start up a new one. With our Convention coming in May and our chance at nominating a candidate at that time, we may have to have some serious discussions. I have found that we Libertarians drive Conservatives crazy because we now use the platform and agenda of the old GOP.

Liberals can't possibly live without their laws to government from birth to the grave.

I'm serious, can we find or start an LP forum of our own? This place is filled with children.

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 04:01 pm

This placed is already filled with libertarian ...

"they would condone the use of violence to achieve their goals."

And by what mean ? If there is no law or governement ??

By a social contract, and how a social contract is different than a a law ??

Toussaint · Feb 25, 2004, 04:17 pm

Haiti is a country where there is no understanding of free markets and individual rights by the ruling elite and no rule of law because there is basically no functioning judiciary.

Libertarians, in general, favor a government which is restricted to the duties of protecting their people from harm by others through enforcing contracts, and carrying out the law. This is not Haiti and to charcterize this country as "libertarian" suggests that maybe you, Mathieu, don't know much about libertarianism. Is this the case?

I mean, there's large gulf between wanting to end all entitlement programs (which this country did not have for its first 160 years- "anarchy" did not ensue) and wanting anarchy.

Think about this.

Mathieu · Feb 25, 2004, 04:23 pm

Well this is what some people suggest here ... And also, as you now stated that the libertarian, well some of them , want a governement, as mininmal it is , then how to choose what is included in this governement or not ? Who knows, this is open to discussion ... But no one want to engage it as I saw ...

First year of the Us state, the life expectancy was quite low and the working conditions were quit shittier than today .And about anrchy, well it was not exactly order too ...

And what about those anarcho-communist who went to spain to fight in the spanish civil war ? These people were courageous and were fighting for their ideals. Not as the militant we have now ...

Feb 25, 2004, 10:10 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	island nations in the state of utopian revolution? they have had decades to move to cuba but they lack the courage of their convictions... but there is a better chance of becoming the next castro in haiti than cuba... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 25, 2004, 10:16 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) I was thinking, there is a lot of libertarian here who dream of a country with no state, where they could live their Utopia ... Haiti is now pretty much a stateless country, and is living a revolution ... Why don't you all go there to make your utopist society, what stop you from doing so ?? It is a gave a golden opportunity !!! You will never have a better one in USA ...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh, I get it. Love or leave it. I consider myself a libertarian but not a violent anarchist (although I'd prefer anarchy to tyrannical police state).

Feb 25, 2004, 10:30 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) Well you like anarchy ? go to Haiti !! Everything is to be done here, it is the best opportunity you have ?? Or you are too comfortable in you authoritarian state ???<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Never said I liked anarchy. You sound like someone in 1930s Germany defending the Fatherland against its critics...

Feb 25, 2004, 10:36 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (although I'd prefer anarchy to tyrannical police state).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I still don't understand why Haiti is not the perfect place for libertarians to start the utopist society ... We want no state, no governement, but just as long as every one do as I want and do not harm me .... Haiti have no state, no laws today. Artibonite is not that violent as the rebels have already controlled the region !! These people are eager for change ?? Why would'nt go there ? It fit perfectly your ideals no ? Or you like better the comfoort of your authoritarian state ...

Feb 25, 2004, 01:55 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
leo Sedimentary Rock Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 6	haha

Feb 25, 2004, 10:02 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	I was thinking, there is a lot of libertarian here who dream of a country with no state, where they could live their Utopia ... Haiti is now pretty much a stateless country, and is living a revolution ... Why don't you all go there to make your utopist society, what stop you from doing so ?? It is a gave a golden opportunity !!! You will never have a better one in USA ...

Feb 25, 2004, 10:18 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Well you like anarchy ? go to Haiti !! Everything is to be done here, it is the best opportunity you have ?? Or you are too comfortable in you authoritarian state ???

Feb 25, 2004, 11:00 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	And one wonders why no honest civil intellectual discussion is possible.. given all of these strawmen, mischaracterizations, and essential dishonesty it is no surprise progress does not occur. When ideologues are not willing to even consider any views other than their own, all of the facts and reason that contradicts their ill conceived assumptions, or any thing at all outside of the very narrow blinders they choose to wear, necessarily nothing worthwhile will result. And for the record I am not even a libertarian, I am simply commenting on the anti-intellectual, anti-reason, uncivil, and dishonest behaviors so very apparent here.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:04 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	LOL. I asked a simple question, the only answer I had is that one do not like violent anarchy ... Why would it be better in a libertarian Utopia ? Why Haiti is not a place for it ?? But it is easier to attack me than answer ...

Feb 25, 2004, 11:27 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Pointing out that you employ dishonest tactics, errors in reasoning, and strawman tactics is not an attack on you, it is simply stating the facts. Had you wanted honest discussion you would not have mischaracterized libertarianism nor would you have begun with your false premise that violence is the utopian dream of libertarians. Try honesty, civility, and reason and you will find that discussion can occur. Continue to pretend that your strawman argument represents those you clearly hate, and you will find that they do not defend that strawman position FOR IT IS NOT THEIRS. You will also find that individuals such as myself, will continue to call you on your tactics and pretenses. But of course it is easier to attack strawman positions of your own creation than to be civil, honest, and reasonable.

Feb 25, 2004, 11:32 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Maybe that I did not made myself clear ... I only willing to see libertarian correct me on my view of their beliefs... and I never stated I associated libertarianism with violence . Bu they don't answer as I see. As for a good discussion based on arguments al all ... Well if you are seeking that here you are quite more patien than I am . If I want any good debate, it is certainly not here I will come. From what I see of this board, It is principally about screaming louder than the last poster, not reading other post, or start thread about non-sense, racist belief, discriminative behavior etc... I principally use this place as a entertainment . A humor show sorta . If you don't like it , just pass your way and go scream somewhere esle ...

Feb 25, 2004, 12:57 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	I see no one want to get into this debate ... Yeah to the revolution ... as long as I can get all the advantages and no inconvenients ...

Feb 25, 2004, 02:25 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
bentodd Molten Ash Posts: 76	I do not believe Libertarians should go to haiti because first thing it is not America and trust me we do love America. Haiti is in the middle of a revolution and will probably be succeded by a dictator. I would not give up my right to vote for anything. I think the biggest misconception about Libertarians is that we are trying to create a basicly lawless state or Utopia. This will never happen here but what we are relley trying to do is drasticly reduce the size and wastefulness of the government. Example: Ending the war on drugs. Not because we want to see people strung out on the streets of small towns, but because we have spent billions upon billions of dollars and have not been able to reduce drug use in America. The only thing the war on drugs has succeded in is ruining millions of peoples lives, and creating a black market which is the reason for the high cost of drugs and the crime associated with drugs. End the war on drugs and we will drasticly reduce crime. Example: Privatizing social security. I am 22 years old and I know I will never see a cent from social security. If all the money I have paid into SS was put into a privat interest earning account I would be a millionar by the time I retired. SS is a pyrmaid scheme which is illegal for private people to do. Hope this helps, Benjamin Todd Whant to see a Libertarian get elected? I have recieved the Libertarian and Republican nominations.www.toddforhouse.com Benjamin Todd Candidate for Vermont House

Feb 25, 2004, 02:39 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Thanks Benjamin, I appreciate yours tought and I uderstand the point you make while not agreeing on some points, That the type of Answer I would like to see here. But as far as I know, There are many types of libertarianism . I would label as a Minarchist , if you don't mind. But I was thinking of the arnarcho-communist, who went and fought in the spanish civil war. Those people went there because they beleived in their ideals and wanted to help. This was a violent environnement . But they were REALLY acting like there ideals. But what I see from some libertarian here is a blind faith in their ideals , but absolutely no will to change thing are to leave their comfort to make thing change. I think every political system have its advantage . I also think we, as a society, should try to get to a system wich would include the best of all system, as much as possible. The polarization of the beliefs here discourage me .... I think to stir stuff a bit could help, and trolling here is so fun As I said elsewhere in this board ... I LOVE sarcasm ..

Feb 25, 2004, 02:55 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
joegvb Molten Ash Location: Somewhere (as we all are) Posts: 39	Look at the news tonight about Haiti and then decied if you want to go there. It is a violent and crazy place at the present moment. The goverenment is is choas and the govenment has been overrun. People in Haiti are killing people left and right. As posted in a Newspaper Haiti's President has said "i urgently appleal for the world's help to avert a bloodbath" This sounds just like a utopia doesnt it! More from me later, JOE Those Who Admit Defeat and Failure are Unfit to Command.

Feb 25, 2004, 03:01 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
koi Molten Ash Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 63	why should libertarians move in the first place? we live in our own cities around the world, where we hope to further educate those around us. But moving to an island commune we may truly prove that "libertarianism works" but at what cost? how will a libertarian island provide and compete against the globalized corporations? yes, we could try to be self sufficient, but that slows progress and prevents overall diversification of the market. I am also rather put-off by your stance against libertarianism and that you would even consider it possible that they would condone the use of violence to achieve their goals. "Optimisim is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable" Voltaire "The point of sacrifice is giving up something you didn't want in the first place"

Feb 25, 2004, 03:29 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Sandy Igneous Magma Posts: 239	We had a Libertarian board a couple of years ago. Maybe we should start up a new one. With our Convention coming in May and our chance at nominating a candidate at that time, we may have to have some serious discussions. I have found that we Libertarians drive Conservatives crazy because we now use the platform and agenda of the old GOP. Liberals can't possibly live without their laws to government from birth to the grave. I'm serious, can we find or start an LP forum of our own? This place is filled with children.

Feb 25, 2004, 04:01 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	This placed is already filled with libertarian ... "they would condone the use of violence to achieve their goals." And by what mean ? If there is no law or governement ?? By a social contract, and how a social contract is different than a a law ??

Feb 25, 2004, 04:17 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Toussaint Molten Ash Posts: 43	Haiti is a country where there is no understanding of free markets and individual rights by the ruling elite and no rule of law because there is basically no functioning judiciary. Libertarians, in general, favor a government which is restricted to the duties of protecting their people from harm by others through enforcing contracts, and carrying out the law. This is not Haiti and to charcterize this country as "libertarian" suggests that maybe you, Mathieu, don't know much about libertarianism. Is this the case? I mean, there's large gulf between wanting to end all entitlement programs (which this country did not have for its first 160 years- "anarchy" did not ensue) and wanting anarchy. Think about this. "Government is the great fiction through which everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else." - Frederic Bastiat "Now go and sin no more!" - Jesus Christ

Feb 25, 2004, 04:23 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Well this is what some people suggest here ... And also, as you now stated that the libertarian, well some of them , want a governement, as mininmal it is , then how to choose what is included in this governement or not ? Who knows, this is open to discussion ... But no one want to engage it as I saw ... First year of the Us state, the life expectancy was quite low and the working conditions were quit shittier than today .And about anrchy, well it was not exactly order too ... And what about those anarcho-communist who went to spain to fight in the spanish civil war ? These people were courageous and were fighting for their ideals. Not as the militant we have now ...