Libertarian ! Go to Haiti !

[Mathieu]

Humm, not everyone here seems to think like that ...

So if there a governement, even a small one, you need taxation ...

But , oh my god, taxation=theft in the book of a lot of libertarian here.

It seems to be a mantra for a lot of people ....

So you advocate that this is no theft if it is only for a small governement?

[Poetic_Justice]

lol, you got it right mathieu... I'd really like to see how minarchists can jsutify a limited govt.

[laserkid]

Taxation isnt bad in and of itself - its when you get to the point where you're taking more than half of an individuals income in taxes that things get out of hand.

I can't speak for all Liberetarians but taxes arent the biggest government problem. And I'm not a miniarchist. I'm a Liberetarian. Anarchy is just a line to a totalitarian regime eventually.

[Mathieu]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Taxation isnt bad in and of itself - its when you get to the point where you're taking more than half of an individuals income in taxes that things get out of hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

And what are your argument for that ? I mean, when you accept the concept of taxation, and governement, there is place for disscusion on what this governement must contain and not.

I see some people here who are fast a shooting the party line ...
It looks like many libertarian have many diffrent view of libertarianism ... How will they be able to do something if they do not even agree to the concepts at the base of their political philosophy ...

[commonsense]

I'll define myself then: Libertarian means "thinking outside the box" as far as attempting to effect positive social change WITHOUT bringing it about at the point of a gun or bureaucrat's pen (taxation)

San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge is a prime example. It was conceived, designed, organized, funded and built without a single taxpayer penny.

It gave the region and the world an artistic and technological marvel, increased the area economically exponentially for all time, created thousands of high and low-tech jobs, while being a beautiful, ecologically sound project that never cost a single life or serious injury during its challengingly dangerous construction...

All without having or creating a solitary regulatory government agency!

[commonsense]

....As for the argument of what govern "must contain and what not..." I would say Libertarians should be strict Constitutional Constructionists.

[Mathieu]

And what's that ? Agency ...

[Mathieu]

Define Constitutional constructionist?

[commonsense]

My point exactly. That agency and probably countless other ripple effects just surrounding this one bridge sprang up after its construction, once the bureaucratic feed-trough evolved soon after. Besudes, another point to bear in mind regarding libertarianism is that much of the criticisms levied here regard FEDERAL bureacracy and not the local ones. Before you say AH-HAH!! remember that just getting rid of this double-dipping, or double bureacratic jeopardy or redundancy or whatever you want to call it, ....would greatly reduce or tax burden, free up enterprise and entreprenuership at all levels, and simply force alot of economically and spiritually debilitating
"deadwood" that we own for life presently into finding honest and productive outlets for their now wasted talents. Very inspirational and spiritually humanitarian, don't you think? ..not to mention the presently barely functional familt that might then spebd more time together once both parents aren't rushing about making up half their income they pay in taxes.
"the family is man's most effective and efficient means to making human beings "human" .....not government-sponsored, tax-funded day care, "socialist indoctrination camps....shades of Hitler Youth on our schools, with an American self-serving bureaucratic twist...tell a lie long enough and to someone young enough, and it becomes fact...

[commonsense]

Constitutional Constructionist:

"Congress shall make no law abridging these basic rights!" :
Freedom of speech,
Right to individual bearing arms (read contemporary writngs of the authors)
Separation of church and state
Unlawful search and seizure, (Hah!)
Speedy trial, no self incrimination, cruel and unusual etc etc

All "social" engineering (read usurpation of taxes and control of poor voters) would be alien to a Constitional Constructionist, including "creating jobs" (creating bureaucrats)
because it violates the Separation of Church and State!
Think about it! These self-serving phony politicians and bureaucrats always cite "CONSCIENCE" for emotionally manipulating for votes.
If there is such a thing as a sincere (deluded) liberal, "social progress" is really a fanatical secular religion based on the perversion of a natural, but misplaced and misguided human instinct to do good. (but most aren't naive, they're self-serving)
WE are the most charitable and compassionate of nations. There are "outside the box" solutions to the social ills that socialism magnifies

[Mathieu]

Well that's your opinion. Very USA centered . Bu the one here who argue about keeping a national defense and police... This require a Federal state no ? And also tax. And how can Tax-theft=bad at federal level, but not a local one ? Define constitutional constructivist ?

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
"the family is man's most effective and efficient means to making human beings "human" .....not government-sponsored, tax-funded day care, "socialist indoctrination camps....shades of Hitler Youth on our schools, with an American self-serving bureaucratic twist...tell a lie long enough and to someone young enough, and it becomes fact...
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

That's your opinion .

The problem of many libertarian here, and others in fact, is that you need to make a difference between your opinions and facts.Screaming the same party line as a mantra,in every related or unrelated post, (tax=theft=bad) do not help a debate. That is an opinion . Every one got it, you people think like that. If you want to debate it make a thread about it and that's it . Else keep it for yourself.

[Mathieu]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (commonsense,)
Constitutional Constructionist:

"Congress shall make no law abridging these basic rights!" :
Freedom of speech,
Right to individual bearing arms (read contemporary writngs of the authors)
Separation of church and state
Unlawful search and seizure, (Hah!)
Speedy trial, no self incrimination, cruel and unusual etc etc

All "social" engineering (read usurpation of taxes and control of poor voters) would be alien to a Constitional Constructionist, including "creating jobs" (creating bureaucrats)
because it violates the Separation of Church and State!
Think about it! These self-serving phony politicians and bureaucrats always cite "CONSCIENCE" for emotionally manipulating for votes.
If there is such a thing as a sincere (deluded) liberal, "social progress" is really a fanatical secular religion based on the perversion of a natural, but misplaced and misguided human instinct to do good. (but most aren't naive, they're self-serving)
WE are the most charitable and compassionate of nations. There are "outside the box" solutions to the social ills that socialism magnifies<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

But again that is your opinion.

Demonize everyone around you. If that is your only argument, it is very weak.

[commonsense]

All of Human history is a little more than an "opinion" if you're honest. Libertarianism, is the modern corollary to the PHILOSOPHY that recognizes HUMAN NATURE does not change. Don't be defensive. I confess it applies to me, Americans are not morally superior. Power corrupts. Do not think that I am saying much of modern American historical actions are not examples of this. Quite the contrary. The HUMAN NATURE of our politicians, domestic and internationally, set policies into motion that are at best preferential, at worst usurpation, even murderous. That's why the honest desire of men already in possession of great wealth and power 230+ years ago to circumscribe their own potential for corruption should be viewed as the highest of human moral achievement. In fact, much of U.S success and the fact that millions risk their lives to come here evryday is living proof of their philosophy, that to the extent we are still unhindered to pursue our own independent self interests individually moves society forward as a whole.
yeah, ok, you get it! I just began to do what you just complained about...so then, YOU tell me that its "just opinion" and not an ingenious constitutional solution to curtail man's worst side while freeing his best side to flourish. Admit you are aware of the moral drain of living under systems that are ostensibly based on "equality" rather than "individual rights and rights to property" yet are rife with privelege... Where are you from? Isn't the negative birthrate of much of europe some indication of spiritual listlessness?

[commonsense]

P.S.
Don't you sense the tension in europe? It hasn't been long since the last violent eruption, and history shows it will be soon again.

[Impenitent]

yes, europe is due for another civil war...

[Mathieu]

Well, I think america is closer to a civil war than europe ...

As for the american system , I live in Canada, and would not share any system for the one I'm in . You may consider, from your point of view , that a a system based on individual rights can only the one in US. Canada give importance to civil liberty , but also to equity, among everyone, as a way to control human nature and keep the social peace . It is a choice the majority of Canadian made that they care about helping the poorest of us, and giving equal chance to everyone. There is no such thing in US . The american system do not take in consideration the human nature . The poorest are starving while the rich drinks champagfne , and no one seems to care. 48 millions are without any health coverage but you hide under civil liberties to hide from this horrible constatation that 4/5 of american look dyiing and starving 1/5 of the population and do absolutely nothing to help that .

[koi]

Minarchy may have it's pros and cons, and the US Libertarian movement seems to strongly support it. but my own beliefs in a governmentless non-state are centered around both the teachings of Libertarians and Anarcho-Capitalism.
I cannot justify a government, no matter how small. I will live in this society, I will contribute, pay taxes and make use of all things made available to me. I am not going to burn down parliment or refuse to pay taxes or break laws.
But I will use everything at my disposal to educate others about my beliefs. I will not vote or consent to the rape of the people. I will not join or hold memebership in any politcal party, even a libertarian one. I will hold to my beliefs.

[commonsense]

Ok koi.... maybe you can talk to your countryman Mithieu. He's been watching CNN again. Canada has nice public boating facilities and nice parks.

What the heck was M talking about human nature? America's probs he described so inaccurately are the result of our brand of socialism, NOT the philosophy of our founders.
Don't worry... Mithieu will change his tune once he sees the negative side of "human nature" that hordes of immigrants will bankrupt Canada taking full advantage of his "beneficent systems"
It's human nature to screw-off if given the chance...that's why not offering bloated inefficient paternalistic "systems" which exist at the point of a gun in the backs of working families who can still manage to raise their own children while struggling to feed your systems---is actually MOST honest and humanitarian...I didn't say American politics was that way for long.
Be glad that the U.S. is a huge geographical buffer zone for socialism's ills to the frozen north.... The tide will get there, too, and it will suck.

[Mathieu]

Continue in your diatribe against the system. The only arguments you have to offer is blind faith in your opinion. No one of you here is interrested in fact, they prefer to cultivate anger agianst the system . It is easier to stay out and whine than to get in and change it in a proactive way . Just attack me , it is easier than to try to demonstrate anything, continue to throw the party line.

To me there is no difference between you and a blind beleiver like radical islamist or hyper-nationalist .

[commonsense]

"Government gains, Liberty wanes" (or something like that)
Jefferson?