Libertarian ! Go to Haiti !

[Locke]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (bentodd,)
I do not believe Libertarians should go to haiti because first thing it is not America and trust me we do love America.

I think the biggest misconception about Libertarians is that we are trying to create a basicly lawless state or Utopia. This will never happen here but what we are relley trying to do is drasticly reduce the size and wastefulness of the government.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

There is a grave misconseption, even among libertarians, about what libertarians believe, but the one thing we should agree on is that our goals and aims will happen some day. I don't know why you fight for us if you don't believe we can win some day. What a pointless life you must lead if you spend your life is such a defeatist mindset.

Haiti is not what we want however. Libertarians wish people to desire freedom as our forefathers desired freedom; with no strings attached. Americans today have forgotten why this country was formed and the libertarian platform is to revive the dream. For some reason the people of these United States have come to misunderstand what our forebearers fought for. They didn't fight for the security to make a billion dollars, or for the stability to erect massive public works projects; they fought for freedom, plain and simple. Americans need to think about sometime.

[Mathieu]

But you forefathers did not even agreed toghteter ...

[RebelWithanAK]

While I most certainly do not sympathize with Libertarians in the least, Haiti - ie: a civil war - is obviously not what they want.

However, being that they want virtually no government control insofar as they can get away with it - ie: hardly anything beyond a military to defend borders or, barring that, an armed militia - Haiti is probably what they're going to get.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
However, being that they want virtually no government control insofar as they can get away with it - ie: hardly anything beyond a military to defend borders or, barring that, an armed militia - Haiti is probably what they're going to get.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

So are you telling us right now that the only reason you do not steal from your neighbor, kill people randomly, and act in all the possible harmful manners is that the government tells you not to do so?

[Mathieu]

Prisons are full of people who do that even with a governement ...

[Stigmata66]

I hardly considered poverty stricken and war torn Haiti a libertarian utopia... This is just a pointless question of whether or not we would move to haiti. We need to fix things here at home first before even consider going aboard and that is a maybe at best. Don't ask rhetorical questions like this because they answer is obviously no.


P.S. Haiti is chaos not true Anarchy.

[Mathieu]

And what is the difference for you ???

[RebelWithanAK]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)
So are you telling us right now that the only reason you do not steal from your neighbor, kill people randomly, and act in all the possible harmful manners is that the government tells you not to do so?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Short answer, yes.

[laserkid]

Just because I carry an ideology that believes less government is better doesnt mean I want NO government, nor that I want to abandon this great nation I live in. Its not perfect, but no country is. Leaving a country over slight political diffrences is flat out...retarded.

[AnonT]

The difference between libertarians and anarchists is that anarchists want absolutely no government, while libertarians want a government that defends its people from outside threats and enforces victim-based crime (eg. arrest murderers, not drug users; arrest rapists, not prostitutes), but that doesn't do too much else.

Anyway, Haiti now is what Somalia was in the late 80s to early 90s. The government is in the process of being overthrown, the rebels are competing with each other over who gets to form a new government. In a couple years, when nobody is powerful enough to rule and the remnants of each rebel faction each take a small portion of the island, and businesses start to realize that there are no taxes, no restrictions, etc., their economy will take off. Somalia's economy is the strongest it's ever been; since their government collapsed, they've built new schools, hospitals, hotels, and Hargeysa (one of the largest cities in Somalia) has its own satellite telephone system. In a decade or so, Haiti will probably be a better place to live than it has been for the last decade, but right now it's an awful place.

Edit: As for why I won't move to Haiti (or even Somalia), there were a few discussions among libertarian and anarchist groups about moving to Somalia, but once the Free State project was formed, we decided to make changes here, rather than abroad.
Proud member of the Free State Project!

[Mathieu]

Well somalia isn't exactly an utopist land either.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by


Somalia

CONSOLIDATED APPEAL

SUMMARY

Extreme underdevelopment

For Somalis, prolonged uncertainty about their future has inhibited their ability to cope and complicated reconstruction and development efforts.

For the twelfth year, Somalis have no central government, despite hopes arising from the Somalia National Reconciliation Conference of 2002.

Somalis still face extreme poverty and underdevelopment. They consistently rank among the lowest in the world on key indicators of human development, life expectancy, per capita income, malnutrition and infant mortality.

Somalis also suffer widespread human rights violations, including: murder, rape, looting and destruction of property, child soldiering, kidnapping, discrimination against minorities, torture, female genital mutilation, unlawful arrest and detention, and denial of due process.

Severe and chronic drought, as well as flooding, combined with insecurity, frequently disrupt farming.

The prolonged combination of these factors has eroded food security and livelihood capacities, impeded recovery and rendered many areas inaccessible to aid agencies.

Malnutrition rates in some areas remain at humanitarian crisis levels, which are considered 'normal' for Somalia.

The deterioration of traditional livelihoods has forced thousands to migrate to urban areas in search of employment. Conditions they meet there are only marginally better.

Basic coping mechanisms, including remittances from abroad and social security networks based on clan and kinship allow the chronically vulnerable – totalling about 750,000 – to maintain a fingerhold on survival.

The most acutely vulnerable include about 350,000 IDPs, more than 460,000 returnees and tens of thousands of Somalis from minority groups.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>


UN: somalia

[commonsense]

YAWN!!!
To all of you mischaracterizing Libertarian philosophy out there, try reading Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man", it is very brief.

At least read the section on Governments. Also reading a few quotes from Jefferson, and the rest of our nation's founders will make you appreciate how keenly they observed the best and worst of human nature, and how strictly adhering to their intentions of limiting governmental power would have averted every single societal problem we face today.
Every advance we can point to and everything that still makes America the best nation in the world is owed to the principle of limited government.
Sadly, both parties, despite their rhetoric, grow government and all the societal backlash that creates.
Libertarians believe that in this, most compassionate and charitable nation in human history, there is a voluntary or free-market solution to everything, if one opens one's mind to the possibilities,
instead of the elitist, self-serving, spiritually destructive lie of socialism that both parties now represent, just marketed to different audiences.

[koi]

interesting, I am starting to believe that Libertarians from the US are miniarchists. So be it, I will remain confident in my beliefs. Anarchy may not come about in my lifetime but eventually when people are ready, there will be a final shift and true freedom will arise.

Mathieu, do you truly believe that Libertarianism, or even anarcho-capitalism will bring about a New Dark Age? Where is your proof? I hear your words of hatred and distain but you show me nothing to back them. Prove to us that you are justified in your attack on our beliefs.

As for our own anti-communist feelings, there are ample sources, papers, statistics and information documents readily available to prove that the Free Market is better suited to progress and theeconomical success of a nation.

[Mathieu]

Well, The state has proven to be quite good at keeping the social order . However , every system where the state dissapeared or collapsed shown chaos looting similar to what you would call "the dark age " . The groups who organize better or are more prepared can then start oppresing the other , as no law or no state prevent them to do so . If you think that in an libertarian utopia every citizen would be intelligent enough to stop himself from wanting to dominate the others by force, then you are more utopist than I tought.

Talking about communism .... Isn't that pretty similar to the unreachable proletarian elite wich made the decadence of communism.

I think is it to the libertarian to carry the burden of the proof regarding to social order in a libertarian Utopia. Many state of various political allegeance have proven to be able to substain a social order. Not libertarianism.

[Mathieu]

You are for a total absence of law and you blame me for what I say ...

What, do you want to pass a law about it ?

[Poetic_Justice]

straw man yet again... exactly when did we say we didn't want laws?

Oh, and for a look at some fairly libertarian societies, look at some North American societies, pre-European invasion, Irish society pre-British invasion, Some African societies, especially on the West Coast, pre-European exploitation.

[Mathieu]

Well that's exactly what some people say here...

One question, as libertarian , you can't be against a group of people who, within your libertarian Utopia , would like to constitute a state , no ?

Those people ae free to do so on their property and nothing stop them from doing so , if I follow your logic ?
no ?

The country you cite had pretty low life expectancy , high children mortality , and they were nothing like socially stable ...

[Toussaint]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
If you think that in an libertarian utopia every citizen would be intelligent enough to stop himself from wanting to dominate the others by force, then you are more utopist than I tought.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Mathieu, you seem to be very good at setting up strawmen. Having a limited government does not mean that the government allows people to dominate others by force. :rolleyes: In general, the libertarian perspective is that the government's main duty is to protect people from such coercion. I really can't understand how you jump to the conclusion that this means libertarians are for no government.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Talking about communism .... Isn't that pretty similar to the unreachable proletarian elite wich made the decadence of communism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Actually, this country started out with a limited government, and pretty much stayed that way for the most part until the 1930s. Limited government isn't utopia- this society has lived with lmiited government as have others. That you equate economic freedom, with a government which protects those freedoms, as an unattainable goal shows that you may be in need of a history lesson.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I think is it to the libertarian to carry the burden of the proof regarding to social order in a libertarian Utopia. Many state of various political allegeance have proven to be able to substain a social order. Not libertarianism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

See above. Are you saying that a social order cannot be maintained by rule of law, law enforcement, and a judicial system? All of these are critical components of libertarian/classic liberal ideas. And, yes, they have sustained social order.

[Mathieu]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
nteresting, I am starting to believe that Libertarians from the US are miniarchists. So be it, I will remain confident in my beliefs. Anarchy may not come about in my lifetime but eventually when people are ready, there will be a final shift and true freedom will arise.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I think your fellow Koi do not agree with you ...

How libertarian can aspire to establish their idea if they can't even agree on the most crucial issues ?

You are very good to call people straw men, while you choose selectively the statement I do to do your own straw man attack . You see I am able to call people like that too.

But the debate do not advance really with that.

[laserkid]

Funny. Since when was less government a synonym of no government?

Also random thought, Utopia pretty much means "nowhere"