100,000 Radical Shi'ites Protest Iraq Charter, etc.

[grandpa]

Charter Talks 'Hopelessly Deadlocked':
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050826/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

100,000 Radical Shi'ites Protest Iraq Charter:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26663687.htm

US, Insurgents Locked in Stalemate:
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/world/12476521.htm

[GodBlessAmerica]

It's a tough one, they IMO have a screwed up culture to begin with.

[Pooeypants]

Please elaborate on what a "screwed up" culture is. I'd love to see you do so without sounding like a racist.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Pooeypants Please elaborate on what a "screwed up" culture is. I'd love to see you do so without sounding like a racist.

I personally think probably every culture has screwed up things about it.

Grandpa h.

[northtexan]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica It's a tough one, they IMO have a screwed up culture to begin with.

Hey, GodlessShameofAmerica, how about contributing something worthwhile to the debate? Now consider: the Shia are Dubya's best bets at present, and they are fighting among themselves. Should they make peace among themselves, they will likely ally themselves with Iran, Dubya's new intended target. And our former golden boy, Chalabi, is now allied with Bani Sadr.

The Kurds? They seem to be getting what they wanted all along: a largely-independent Iraqi Kurdistan. For that, I salute them -- I have supported an independent Kurdistan for decades. But don't expect them to pull Dubya's policies out of the fire.

As to culture: Iraq is the cradle of civilization, has ancient cultures from which johnny-come-lately American culture could learn. It also, unfortunately, has a strong trend toward fundamentalist theocracy, but then so does the U.S. The Kurds, by the way, favor a secular government, and one with some elements of democracy, although not along American lines. They have also been fighting for their freedom for centuries, and they have a long tradition of being very-able fighters. Europeans found that out a thousand years ago, when King Richard of England went up against Salah al-Din, a Kurd from Tikrit. Interestingly, the Shia also went up against Saladin and lost badly, as their dynasty was ended in Egypt and they were largely replaced by Sunnis. And the Sunni-Shia split goes back a few centuries more. So, ancient culture -- but ancient antagonisms. The problem is not 'a screwed up culture,' nor 'screwed up cultures,' rather the problems are: centuries of foreign rule, the Ottoman Empire before European; placement in a single state created arbitrarily by the English after Turkey was defeated in WWI, and more-recent Islamic fundamentalist revival.

[Boetie]

This is just history repeating itself. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Iraq was supposed to gain autonomy, but Britain wanted the oil, so Britain kept it as a colony. This was back in 1920. What is happening now happened then.

The British got sick of all the terrorism back in 1920 and bailed out. But before they did they set up a king in order to prevent warring between the three tribes.

The tribes fought like cats and dogs until Saddam took power.

History would have told you that if you go in there like the current tyrants of the United States did, you're going to bring back the chaos that happened back in 1920. Duh

[grandpa]

Quote by: Boetie This is just history repeating itself. After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Iraq was supposed to gain autonomy, but Britain wanted the oil, so Britain kept it as a colony. This was back in 1920. What is happening now happened then. The British got sick of all the terrorism back in 1920 and bailed out. But before they did they set up a king in order to prevent warring between the three tribes. The tribes fought like cats and dogs until Saddam took power. History would have told you that if you go in there like the current tyrants of the United States did, you're going to bring back the chaos that happened back in 1920. Duh

That's what Lawrence of Arabia was all about, right?

Grandpa h.

[rmnunez]

The constitutional process and radicalization of the Shia in Iraq are complicated problems. I think the Iraqi Shia are more secular than their Iranian brethren, Church/State integration under some religiously fundamentalist doctrine is not an Iraqi Shia goal. Yet the Iraqi Shia have problems which are not adequately addressed under the occupation. They are entitled to greater participation in their government than they have previously been afforded and were victimized under the Saddamite regime, they have been targetted by the insurgents at their places of worship and their attackers oppose them at least in part on religious and ethnic grounds. The Kurds and Marsh Arabs to a lesser extent, shared the Shia experience under Saddam. With intervention came opportunity to adjust all this and the Shia, with others, confront mainly Sunni, Baathist, Saddamite henchmen who are in the insurgency -not to repudiate occupation as much as to recover political control.

[Sean]

Quote by: northtexan Hey, GodlessShameofAmerica, how about contributing something worthwhile to the debate?

Texan, no insults-especially if you are going to then ask for him to debate.

[jose]

Seems like a lot of Iraqi´s just dont want any of the options proposed by the invaders,except Go now, leave the keys to the oil on the table

[grandpa]

Quote by: jose Seems like a lot of Iraqi´s just dont want any of the options proposed by the invaders,except Go now, leave the keys to the oil on the table

And that would make sense, ultimately. Beyond that, I'm sure there are at least some Iraqis who oppose all sides in the conflicts.

Grandpa h.