Anti-War, Anti-Soldier.

[YourTokah]

well, everything needs a little comic relief from time to time.

The soldiers are not criminals.
They are following orders from their commander in chief, which is precisely what they swore to do and precisely what Americans want them to do.

No, not all Americans want us to be over there in the desert. Not even most, now.
But the president was elected by those same americans, then re-elected. He made the decision (and who couldn't see it coming?) and the troops have to obey or they go to jail and erase any chance of having a more-than-minimum-wage future.

Most of the kids over there are just that - KIDS. My brother is 21 and about to go over for the 4th time. (1 in Afghanistan, 3rd time in Iraq). They are fed so much tripe and b.s. - patriotism is shoved down their throats and applied to their asses with sledgehammers. At first, they all believe in what they are doing - some of them become jaded later on, but nonre of them are criminals.

If they were defending your sorry ass from invasion you'd be thankful for their sacrifice and commitment.

[rbuchanan]

Quote by: Redbeard Aye, no, Me didn't read anythin' about us pirates not bein' allowed t' post.

Good! For I've gold doubloons to trade with ye, in exchange for th' peg boy taken from yer last island voyage, ye scurvy scalliwag! Aye, an' thar be far more from where that came.
ARRRR!!!!

[jose]

Quote by: YourTokah If they were defending your sorry ass from invasion you'd be thankful for their sacrifice and commitment.

yes but there not defending our sorry ass from invasion, there invadeing a soveriegn nation.
how do you feel about the iraqi boys defending there sorry ass from invasion from the americans?

[Gracchus]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I see how it is, intolerant towards pirates are ya? Who are you to judge him?!?!

Well, foreign soldiers in Iraq, ARE pirates, whether foolish or evil matters little to the Iraqis. They have voluntarily put their consciences in the keeping of Bush, Cheney and Co. (formerly the United States of America) and their suffering is self-induced, unlike the suffering of the Iraqi people who were NOT hoarding weapons of mass destruction, were NOT terrorists, and were NOT Saddam Hussein.

The war is about controlling oil supplies and oil prices. It is a murderous pirate raid.

[YourTokah]

Quote by: jose yes but there not defending our sorry ass from invasion, there invadeing a soveriegn nation. how do you feel about the iraqi boys defending there sorry ass from invasion from the americans?

The Iraqi's are doing exactly what I would do if someone were marching up my street. It's not the fault of the soldiers that we're there, it's the fault of their commander in chief and everyone that voted him into office.

The Iraqi's have a right to defend themselves. The soldiers have a right to defend themselves. Other than that, they are only doing what they are ordered to do by our president. If you don't like it, work for Change. Get involved in politics in a more constructive way. The soldiers don't have any choice now, just like they won't have any choice when it's Our country being invaded.

[Ken Carman]

I haven't had a chance to read every post regarding this topic, so please excuse me if some else has already covered this. Sometimes when someone offers a story like this it smells like a rotted fish left out in the sun. So I've been bouncing around other blogs. Here is one response from someone who said they would check on it and get back to me. He did say there was some truth to the story, but not much...

"...they're taking something that has a nugget of truth to it, and twisting it into something completely unrecognizable. Yes, a peace group (Code Pink) are organizing outside Walter Reed once a week, not to protest against the wounded soldiers within, but to hilight the practice of Trifectaboy trying to hide the casualties, and bury the real numbers."

Here's a link to their (the protestors) site.

Here is how one link provided there describes this "anti-soldier protest..."

CODEPINK recently held a nightly vigil at Walter Reed Army Medical Center from Friday, March 25 to Friday, April 1, at the North Gate (7200 Georgia Ave. at Elder Street, NW- see below for directions). It was a very successful action bringing together peace activists, soldiers, military families and neighbors. We will continue the vigil every Friday as a reminder that physically and psychologically wounded soldiers are returning from Iraq and Afghanistan every night. See Stars and Stripes article about the vigil

Damn, how disrespectful to hilight the fact that soldiers are being maimed and mentally wounded in this war. It happens in all wars, this is true. But a society that is intentionally kept from this truth isn't actually supporting the war, but some fantasy provided by the war makers. If a society isn't mature enough to see the coffins, see the wounded and then can't decide on an adult level to keep fighting, or not, probably shouldn't march into other countries and order them to choose other leaders to begin with. I guess some feel keeping it all more like some video game or keeping the public from paying attention is more important. If the war is important enough, the public will support it despite, and maybe because of, the bloodshed. ("Remember the Maine!" "Remember the Alamo!") If those who flew into the towers actually had been Saddam's henchmen I'll bet we'd put up with a lot more bloodshed. The administration could open up the hospitals, put the coffins on the front page of every paper in the country on a daily basis and these brave soldiers would help us all cheer on the troops. The fact that anything that shines light on the war is avoided says little good about what we are doing. No matter whether the cause is just, or not, I think it's a bad thing.

Look, both sides are using these guys and ladies for political purposes. It what happens during wars with a society that's attempting to be free while thinking they are defending their freedom by fighting, whether we actually are or not.. One thing's true, some one or group is lying in this case. I'd bet on those talking heads who would do or say anything to support those who kept shifting their rationales for war, keep lying when they claimed Saddam never let the inspectors back in (!!!!!) and said they knew exactly where all the WMD was located.

[Gilligan]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio www.drudgereport.com Yes, remember, the anti-war crowd is enlightenned, principled, and above all, cares only for the soldiers well being. Crock of shit the whole lot fo them.

What about those of us who aren't anti-war, we are just anti-Iraq war? I oppose this war because it is all wrong, and our soldiers are not dying for a just cause.

[Gracchus]

Quote by: YourTokah The soldiers are not criminals. They are following orders from their commander in chief, which is precisely what they swore to do and precisely what Americans want them to do.

This is called the "Nurember defense" after the Germans who used it in the post WWII tribunals. It was rejected then, by the the overwhelming majority of international judges.


:confused:

[jose]

Quote by: YourTokah If you don't like it, work for Change. Get involved in politics in a more constructive way. The soldiers don't have any choice now, just like they won't have any choice when it's Our country being invaded.

Your country Has been invaded,its being invaded right now by a group of neocons and oil men who dont give a hoot how many of your sons and husbands get killed or maimed,hey but thats business,i can´t get involved in your politics in a constructive way as i´m not from america,many soldiers have made a choice not to go with this Illegal war,others have made the choice to obey Illegal orders, but dont stop anyone from pointing out to your soldiers that they might lose an arm or a leg,or their mind! because thats the truth.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: jose Your country Has been invaded, its being invaded right now by a group of neocons and oil men who dont give a hoot how many of your sons and husbands get killed or maimed,hey but thats business,i can´t get involved in your politics in a constructive way as i´m not from america,many soldiers have made a choice not to go with this Illegal war,others have made the choice to obey Illegal orders, but dont stop anyone from pointing out to your soldiers that they might lose an arm or a leg,or their mind! because thats the truth.

Here is a by-county result of the 2004 elections in the United States. The red represents the Republican majority votes in those counties.

The United States isn't invaded, it is properly represented as a reflection of the voting in the last election.

We are not there to take over their oil fields, if that is so, why didn't we keep Kuwait? Why didn't we keep Japan? Why didn't we keep Germany?
Pretty much the only real estate we keep elsewhere is just enough to bury our heroic dead who defend us and have liberated others around the world.

Our soldiers belong to a volunteer army.
Illegal war? LOL

It was proven UN officials were stealing money in the oil for food programs.
France, Germany, Russia and China also had some dubious dealings with Saddam at a time when he was under sanctions from the corrupt UN. (According to various reports in numerous press stories)

Then there are all these mass graves:
http://massgraves.info/
Take a look and figure how many more hundreds of thousands dead were going to be enough for you before Saddam should go.
Saddam was also funding terror outside his country and had tried to assasinate an ex-President of the United States.

It was his time to go.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Illegal war? LOL It was proven UN officials were stealing money in the oil for food programs.

Talk about your twisted logic. Some people were stealing money because of a program designed to make the people of Iraq suffer. Therefore, we need to make the people of Iraq suffer more.

[Gorgo]

People who commit crimes are criminals. The war on the people of Iraq is a criminal enterprise. It is a violation of international and domestic law. The duty of a soldier, under Nuremberg and other international agreements to which the U.S. is a party, is to defy illegal orders. Anyone having any problem with any of this should cite facts, not issue threats.

[Chris]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Here is a by-county result of the 2004 elections in the United States. The red represents the Republican majority votes in those counties. The United States isn't invaded, it is properly represented as a reflection of the voting in the last election. We are not there to take over their oil fields, if that is so, why didn't we keep Kuwait? Why didn't we keep Japan? Why didn't we keep Germany? Pretty much the only real estate we keep elsewhere is just enough to bury our heroic dead who defend us and have liberated others around the world. Our soldiers belong to a volunteer army. Illegal war? LOL It was proven UN officials were stealing money in the oil for food programs. France, Germany, Russia and China also had some dubious dealings with Saddam at a time when he was under sanctions from the corrupt UN. (According to various reports in numerous press stories) Then there are all these mass graves: http://massgraves.info/ Take a look and figure how many more hundreds of thousands dead were going to be enough for you before Saddam should go. Saddam was also funding terror outside his country and had tried to assasinate an ex-President of the United States. It was his time to go.

Spare us GBA. We have gone over and over that stupid "Bush Country" map over and over again. I suggest you take your own advice and "Look stuff up". Do a search and find the thread where that idiotic map was discussed before. We have already come to the conclusion that Land area has no bearing on the marigin of victory in an election. Just because there are 350 people in an area the size of Massachusetts (when Massachusetts has 6,349,097 people) - doesn't mean crap. Your Drudge Newsmax World net daily graphic posters have no effect here GBA. Try again.

[Sonart]

Gorgo, I'm as opposed to this war as anyone and certainly for as long as anyone, but I must tell you that I find your condemnation of the young people in our military as criminals quite offensive and your "if the war is illegal then what else are they but criminals?" logic facile and mean spirited.

Simultaneously, Mr.V's "Anti-War, Anti-Soldier" arguement is a self-serving catch-22. Tell me, Mr.V., did you support Bill Clinton's use of the military? If not, then I'm surprised to find you so Anti-Soldier! That's how it works, right? If you don't give a military operation and the Commander-in-Chief your full-throated support, then you're harming our solders, right?

As I've said before, I supported Desert Storm, I supported our altruistic efforts in Somalia -- and like everyone else learned the limits of military intervention because of it -- I supported our military intervention in the Balkans and I supported our invasion of Afghanistan.

But I cannot and will not support our war in Iraq. It was a bad idea, a Machiavelian geo-political adventure justified by falsehoods this administration too eagerly wanted to be true, executed with criminally incompetent planning from the top, for which we're paying an unacceptable price, and we will continue paying that price for as long as we continue to stay there. The fate of Iraq is whatever it's going to be, whether we leave now or later. And none of this is the fault of our troops... it's entirely the responsibility of LBDubya, Donald Rumsnamara and the rest of the Neo-Cons who thought this was such a clever idea.

Bush is harming our troops for no good reason, Mr.V., so if you support Bush's war, then you support killing our troops indefinitely for no reason.

How's that for infallible Catch-22 logic, Hmmm?
.

[hondacivic21218]

This unnecessary war, based on lies and artificially contrived fears, was inspired by nothing but oil greed. Americans who oppose it are our superpatriots.
Our troops over there are just as much its victims as the Iraquis.
Unfortunately, just like Johnson-Nixon in Vietnam, Bush is perfectly willing to
sacrifice untolled numbers of American lives before admitting their mistake.
We have now spend the equivalent of $8,500 dollars for each of the 26 million
Iraqis on this war, and there's no end in sight. When is Bush going to explain to
the American people why his military aged daughters are exempt from the sacrifices he wants everybody else to make?
Hondacivic21218 (Korean vet...2 battle stars.)

[monty of ll]

Still, the issue is whether or not you support an illegal war. If you witnessed on the news, the coldblooded murder of the dying Iraqi in the mosque and you don't condemn that then you are supporting murder. If you saw the pictures of the Iraqis who had been murdered in Abu Ghraib and you don't condemn that then you are supporting murder. If you are convinced that this Iraq war is wrong, illegal, immoral, and waged for phoney reasons then you have to be supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. If you support any of the above and you don't condemn them for what they are then you are supporting murder. And who are the persons who are committing murder if not the soldiers?

I for one condemn the murder and those who commit murder. Some support the killintg because they believe that the war is justified. Both IMO are honourable positions to take. Others waffle on the question and are afraid to call it what it is because they have this notion that they have to support those who commit murder of others in foreign countries.

[YourTokah]

Did anyone see the news a couple of nights ago?

Iraqi police force members were going door to door through certain neighborhoods, asking questions about known insurgents and terrorists in the area. They asked for the cooperation of the Iraaqi citizens and got it.

Only the Iraqi police force members WEREN'T that at all, they were insurgents. Everyone who talked, who mentioned any names, or who even appeared to eager to cooperate was taken out and SHOT DEAD. Iraqis are doing this to Iraqis.

That's one reason that we're over there now, to create a safe environment for those innocent people.
Nothing is black or white, as these debates help prove. I guarantee you that the American soldiers who are over there right now, trying their damndest to follow orders and to help Iraqi civilians like the ones mentioned above ARE NOT criminals. They are honorable, brave young men and women trying to do what they bleive is right, what their president tells them is right, and what their country, by virtue of the fact that we voted Bush into office (and voted him in AGAIN) tells them is right.

The soldiers cannot disobey their orders, because their orders are not illegal. They are not being told to storm into villages and murder anyone that moves or breathes. They are not being asked to burn rows of houses and shoot the civilians fleeing the flames. They are being asked to serve as peacekeepers and security forces until the Iraqis can establish their own. They are getting their asses shot off every damn day because they believe that a stable, secure, safe, and possibly democratic Iraq will help to insure our future safety, help to ensure that Saddam Hussein and his cronies and followers aren't going to shove a nuke up our collective ass. Show some respect for them as brave individuals.

[ericsp23]

Monty,
It is not fair to condemn all soldiers for the attrocities commited by just a few people. There are certainly bad seeds in the military, as there are in any large group of people. But there is no basis to judge all soldiers based on the actions of a few.

[YourTokah]

And keep in mind that those soldiers didn't just "invade" Iraq. Hussein had ample chances to come clean about his weapons capablities and premit inspections and he refused to do so ni full compliance. He asked for it.

[YourTokah]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how extreme or idiotic that opinion may be.