Anti-War, Anti-Soldier.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Prometheus I'm not saying the war is good, but I don't think "illegal" is an accurate description.

There have been a lot of trials for war crimes that purport to be about international law.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Gorgo There have been a lot of trials for war crimes that purport to be about international law.

But dosen't war defy all law? War is about life and death - it is outside the reasonable bound of any law. When someone is shooting at you, I can garentee that legalities are the last thing in your mind - you will do what is needed to survive.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: YourTokah I amanti-war and pro-soldier. My husband is military. We lead a decent lifestyle thanks to his employer, and when he goes overseas, which will be happening in two months, he's just doing the job he signed up for and is getting paid to do. He didn't want the war to start, but it did and there isn't anything we can do about that now. Those peopl that went to that veteran's hospital are worse than idiots. I am totally against the war and I'd like a chance to be in a dark alley with a few of those ungrateful, misinformed degenerates. "we're not against the soldiers, we're against the war."

I had a client whose husband was in Iraq, Afghanistan and "other places he says he can't tell me about." When I worked for her last year she told me he was part of a special ops team looking for Usama. I asked her about his opinion regarding "the war." "He thinks the job is done and it's time to leave." She said she was scared.

I don't totally agree, but I respect her, and his, opinion. This year I came back to the business and found she had left shortly after that. I wish her well. I hope he's OK.

When I was a Conservative during the 60's some of the protestors annoyed me, not because they were protesting but because they didn't understand the line between protest and being obnoxious jerks. It hurts the cause, no matter what the cause is. While other opinions have changed in my life and been altered, that opinion hasn't changed. I don't care if you're throwing a fetus in a bottle or insulting soldiers. It hurts your cause and makes you look like an idiot.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Prometheus But dosen't war defy all law? War is about life and death - it is outside the reasonable bound of any law. When someone is shooting at you, I can garentee that legalities are the last thing in your mind - you will do what is needed to survive.

We, as a species, have attempted to control it. We have failed and will continue to do so. There have been laws that attempted to define what's reasonable and what's not so, yes, there is such a thing as legal and... not. But since we are attempting to control and hold back what amounts to some mutant cross between a greased wild boar that's been cornered, and a mad bull with a million red flags waved in his face, your point is still valid.

[TheNegotiator]

I'm not sure if illegal is exactly the way to describe it, but I think I know where you're coming from. Basically what I feel is that we were led into this war on false evidence and assumptions, and now there is no end in sight. Whether directly or indirectly, our government lied to us to advance their own personal agenda, and now our servicemen are paying the price.

The point I wish the majority of the president's supporters here in my state (Vermont) would see is that it wasn't the soldiers who decided to go to war. Their job is to do what they are told by their commanders and by those above them. They have a duty to our country which they willingly accepted, and that duty is to serve when the leadership of the country call upon them to do so. It is their misfortune that this situation arose while they were in the service, but that is a given risk. The inability to distinguish between supporting the troops, who are not there of their own decision, and supporting the politics behind the war, which are twisted at best, is something I wish we could move past as a society.

I have every bit of respect for the men and women who are over there (and I mean anywhere, not just Iraq--Afghanistan, etc.) who are doing their duty and making sometimes the ultimate sacrifice to defend the country they love. However I do not at all support the politics that have sent so many men and women to Iraq, and, for some of them, to their death.

[kingjust]

Quote by: YourTokah I amanti-war and pro-soldier. My husband is military. We lead a decent lifestyle thanks to his employer, and when he goes overseas, which will be happening in two months, he's just doing the job he signed up for and is getting paid to do. He didn't want the war to start, but it did and there isn't anything we can do about that now. Those peopl that went to that veteran's hospital are worse than idiots. I am totally against the war and I'd like a chance to be in a dark alley with a few of those ungrateful, misinformed degenerates. "we're not against the soldiers, we're against the war."

Not to be callous, but wait until your husband loses a leg or worse his life. And then see how much support he gets from our government, closing medical facilities, and cutting funds for veterans. Then ask how liberating Iraq helped america as a whole, besides getting control over oil? Those that are worse then idiots are you, for having the audacity to hate people with opposing views and are not blind lambs following Mary where ever she goes. Will you be for going to War in Iran? It's all supposed to be against terror, right?

"I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD."

This oath of enlistment says they defend the constitution and not "liberate all countries under a dictatorship". The only thing that holds are military in chains is obeying the orders of the pres. And this pres., who cannot even admit to a mistake through out his term, is sending troops to Iraq on an ever shifting mission......but wait I thought the mission was accomplished, right? Please tell me what are we in Iraq for, with our military, when all of the excuses for war were debunked and showed to be false? Liberation...........please!!! We are not the world police. To fight terrorism...............please,
americans, white, black, puerto ricans, or hatians can all become terrorists if the cause is just. Maybe to just clean up or cover up the fuck ups and possible illegal activities (8billion still missing, and will not be investigated) that this war has produced. After Saddam fell or was captured, we should have pulled out, setup a funds for rebuilding, and have a group of UN diplomats take over in the restructuring of Iraq. Follow me into this dark alley, I would like to speak to you....................

Oh yeah, just to add, how do we support the troops when you have seen no high level officer or official be taken off to the brig. I sure love the way enlisteds are treated and no officers are to blame, SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, ERR UM, THE OFFICERS FOR ALLOWING THE LOWER ENLISTED TO BE USED AS SCAPEGOATS!!!!!!

[Osborn F Enready]

I am ex-Navy, pro-soldier, anti-war.

It doesn't take a genius to see this war was built on "manipulated information" to support a weak cause, to fit a problem only the presidents administration thought was a problem.

It does take an extremist, to stretch the information to excuse why we are still there, with the same methods that haven't been working, losing lives daily, and injuring thousands.

The war was wrong, in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons. We are there now, and we should adapt to the situation to best get by, until we can extricate our people. Our tactics have been pretty much wrong, since the beginning using fast mobile forces against an invisible enemy, scaring that enemy away while taking casualties, and then leaving that area so more insurgents can occupy it to be cleared again another day at the expense of more lives, more time, more waste.

We should have been stopping the ability of terrorists takeovers of planes for over 13 years now when we started SERIOUSLY probing the faults of the system. Those faults were clearly shown, and made examples of by our own SEAL teams to give example to the extent of the possibilities. The government, both Democrat and Republican let those warnings, examples and proof pass by the wayside, until 9-11 happened.

They ordered the tests, got the results, and ignored the results as well as the recommendations to fix the problems. That is derilection of duty, and punishable as well as WORTHY of investigation, and that too is being ignored.

Bush 1 was in office when these tests were done. He ignored them, as well as Clinton, and Bush 2.

This was a bi-partisan conspiracy to allow America to get struck by terror, so as to aid the government in removing your rights, to merge to one world government in the future.

By being struck by terror, the government proves its need, and further fosters the idea that we are vulnerable without them acting as they do.

Unfortunately, these soldiers that we support are pawns in a politcal game, and truly viewed as the lowest rung on the ladder by politicians and the brass that leads them. Cannon Fodder.

My hearts are with these brave soldiers, and I pray they take their oath to protect the Constitution very seriously, and seek to take action once returning to the states in support of that oath.

[kingjust]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I am ex-Navy, pro-soldier, anti-war. It doesn't take a genius to see this war was built on "manipulated information" to support a weak cause, to fit a problem only the presidents administration thought was a problem. It does take an extremist, to stretch the information to excuse why we are still there, with the same methods that haven't been working, losing lives daily, and injuring thousands. The war was wrong, in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons. We are there now, and we should adapt to the situation to best get by, until we can extricate our people. Our tactics have been pretty much wrong, since the beginning using fast mobile forces against an invisible enemy, scaring that enemy away while taking casualties, and then leaving that area so more insurgents can occupy it to be cleared again another day at the expense of more lives, more time, more waste. We should have been stopping the ability of terrorists takeovers of planes for over 13 years now when we started SERIOUSLY probing the faults of the system. Those faults were clearly shown, and made examples of by our own SEAL teams to give example to the extent of the possibilities. The government, both Democrat and Republican let those warnings, examples and proof pass by the wayside, until 9-11 happened. They ordered the tests, got the results, and ignored the results as well as the recommendations to fix the problems. That is derilection of duty, and punishable as well as WORTHY of investigation, and that too is being ignored. Bush 1 was in office when these tests were done. He ignored them, as well as Clinton, and Bush 2. This was a bi-partisan conspiracy to allow America to get struck by terror, so as to aid the government in removing your rights, to merge to one world government in the future. By being struck by terror, the government proves its need, and further fosters the idea that we are vulnerable without them acting as they do. Unfortunately, these soldiers that we support are pawns in a politcal game, and truly viewed as the lowest rung on the ladder by politicians and the brass that leads them. Cannon Fodder. My hearts are with these brave soldiers, and I pray they take their oath to protect the Constitution very seriously, and seek to take action once returning to the states in support of that oath.

Very well put!! Os

[YourTokah]

Quote by: kingjust Not to be callous, but wait until your husband loses a leg or worse his life. And then see how much support he gets from our government, closing medical facilities, and cutting funds for veterans. Then ask how liberating Iraq helped america as a whole, besides getting control over oil? Those that are worse then idiots are you, for having the audacity to hate people with opposing views and are not blind lambs following Mary where ever she goes. Will you be for going to War in Iran? It's all supposed to be against terror, right?

What the hell are you talking about? "Those that are worse than idiots are you, for having the audacity to hate people with opposing views."

Hello? Read my damn post and you'll see that I said NOTHING of the sort. I completely support the troops, especially the WORKING enlisted soldiers. I will NOT be for going to war in Iran - I already said I'm AGAINST the WAR, ANTI-WAR. Did you even read my post? I can't see how you possibly could have.

Quote by: kingjust AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD."

This is what my husband promised, and the president ordered him to war. Duh. He is doing exactly what he is supposed to do.

Quote by: kingjust Follow me into this dark alley, I would like to speak to you....................

So what, you're talking to someone else, right? I don't see how you could be responding to my post this way. If you're so anti-war, as I AM, then you're either talking to someone else or you're an impulsive idiot making stupid threats against me without reading what the hell I wrote.

HELLO, PEOPLE, does anyone see what I'm seeing, or is this guy really not a threat spouting tool and I'm just as confused as I believe him to be?

[kingjust]

Quote by: YourTokah What the hell are you talking about? "Those that are worse than idiots are you, for having the audacity to hate people with opposing views." Hello? Read my damn post and you'll see that I said NOTHING of the sort. I completely support the troops, especially the WORKING enlisted soldiers. I will NOT be for going to war in Iran - I already said I'm AGAINST the WAR, ANTI-WAR. Did you even read my post? I can't see how you possibly could have. This is what my husband promised, and the president ordered him to war. Duh. He is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. So what, you're talking to someone else, right? I don't see how you could be responding to my post this way. If you're so anti-war, as I AM, then you're either talking to someone else or you're an impulsive idiot making stupid threats against me without reading what the hell I wrote. HELLO, PEOPLE, does anyone see what I'm seeing, or is this guy really not a threat spouting tool and I'm just as confused as I believe him to be?

You know what you are right, I did read to fast and didn't fully get what you wrote, so for that I apologize to you and the mods for flying off the handle. But on the flip note, fuck you, I never reduced myself to dorogatory setiments except now. And for the record, are you serious in thinking it was a threat? This is the internet, c'mon please get a grip. I'm just throwing back what you said about meeting a protestor in the alley, I don't even know you!! Quote from you

I am totally against the war and I'd like a chance to be in a dark alley with a few of those ungrateful, misinformed degenerates.

I guess you didn't fully read or understand my post, but it was my fault for not understanding yours first. So calm down, I acknowledge my fault and replied to your insults, I see things as even. For replying to posts in the future i'll try not to speed read through posts im going to reply to!

[YourTokah]

Quote by: kingjust You know what you are right, I did read to fast and didn't fully get what you wrote, so for that I apologize to you and the mods for flying off the handle. But on the flip note, fuck you, I never reduced myself to dorogatory setiments except now. And for the record, are you serious in thinking it was a threat? This is the internet, c'mon please get a grip. I'm just throwing back what you said about meeting a protestor in the alley, I don't even know you!! Quote from you I guess you didn't fully read or understand my post, but it was my fault for not understanding yours first. So calm down, I acknowledge my fault and replied to your insults, I see things as even. For replying to posts in the future i'll try not to speed read through posts im going to reply to!

I appreciate the admission. It's rare among forum-goers. The reason that your statement is able to be perceived as a threat is that you and I are in contact and have a rapport, whereas those protesters and I will never come face-to-face, so it's a conceptual statement meant to emphasize my emotion, as opposed to a statement directed at an individual with which I am actually having a convo. Thank you, though.

[kingjust]

Quote by: YourTokah I appreciate the admission. It's rare among forum-goers. The reason that your statement is able to be perceived as a threat is that you and I are in contact and have a rapport, whereas those protesters and I will never come face-to-face, so it's a conceptual statement meant to emphasize my emotion, as opposed to a statement directed at an individual with which I am actually having a convo. Thank you, though.

I got you, and no problem, I didn't mean to off like that, just politics and everything that is embodied by it is so damn frustrating when you can't really say or do anything.

[monty of ll]

Why are so many Americans in such a hurry to scream, support the troops, support the troops? Why should anyone who is antiwar support the troops? Those who have enlisted in the military since the beginning of the Iraq war have made a choice to support an illegal and immoral cause. Supporting an illegal and immoral cause makes them murderers who don't deserve to be supported. They have placed their own needs above their choice to do what is right and find employment on the street where they can truly be antiwar without supporting the war in any way.

And those who were in the military before the beginning of the Iraq war can or could be truly antiwar by refusing enmasse to not fight. If they don't refuse to fight a war that is clearly wrong, illegal, and immoral then they deserve what happens to them. They are not worthy of anyone's support.

Just for the record, I'm Canadian and I don't support Canadian troops in Afghanistan because I simply don't support that war either. I am totally convinced that war is also just more American abusive foreign policy which has a main purpose of control over the M.E. It would be hypocritical of me to support our Canadian troops in Afghanistan who are fighting in support of that U.S. foreign policy.

Now anyone who doesn't agree with my stance on the question of supporting the troops can argue the validity of those two wars, and legitimately do so. But they can't argue the main premise which is that one can't support those who he is totally convinced are taking part in a wrong and unjust cause. In no case should anyone support those who are carrying out an unjust cause, not in any civilian walk of life and certainly the military has no grounds to ask to be the exception.

[Zeebadee]

"ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS TARGET WOUNDED AT ARMY HOSPITAL"

The full report hasn't been posted yet, so any comments might just be premature. However, this has so far been a pretty sterile war, no mainstream press coverage of the bodies returning home, or wounded soldiers undergoing whatever rehabilitation they can manage. Very few pictures from the actual war zone that show what is happening to our troops. If these anti-war protestors can manage to get the mainstream media to report on the cost of the war in terms of the wounded, then they may be justified in their actions. 14,000 maimed and injured troops should be a major story, not one hidden away by Bush and his cronies.

[YourTokah]

Quote by: Zeebadee "ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS TARGET WOUNDED AT ARMY HOSPITAL" The full report hasn't been posted yet, so any comments might just be premature. However, this has so far been a pretty sterile war, no mainstream press coverage of the bodies returning home, or wounded soldiers undergoing whatever rehabilitation they can manage. Very few pictures from the actual war zone that show what is happening to our troops. If these anti-war protestors can manage to get the mainstream media to report on the cost of the war in terms of the wounded, then they may be justified in their actions. 14,000 maimed and injured troops should be a major story, not one hidden away by Bush and his cronies.

Not a bad point. I think it would be deplorable if those protesters actually did what this thread details, but it will help to shed a little national exposure on the realities of war and the wounded. Liberal media will play up the injuries, right-wing media will play up the protests. (although it wouldn't be hard to play up those kind of stupid actions.)

[YourTokah]

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: monty of ll Why are so many Americans in such a hurry to scream, support the troops, support the troops? Why should anyone who is antiwar support the troops? Those who have enlisted in the military since the beginning of the Iraq war have made a choice to support an illegal and immoral cause.

monty, we're so parallel that it's almost scary. I as much as said this in another thread when I said- maybe America needs MORE dead and maimed troops in order to "get it" that this is a deteriorating mess, based upon the false corporatocracy paradigm. You are bolder than I am, however. Even so, I don't want ANYONE to die in wars, military or civilian. I want peace.

One caveat: The enlisted folks have had their thinking handed to them in government schools. They don't know that monsters have taken over their government and are using US military muscle to ravage the world. The grunts, leathernecks and swabbies think they are "defending their nation." Thus, I have a hard time accusing them of collusion. They are not in league with the Empire; they are its dupes.

[monty of ll]

Patrick- I chose my words carefully. I wouldn't be in favour of any protest that would be for the sole reason of sticking it to the maimed and injured soldiers. If it's not going to be a protest that can serve the legitimate purpose of ending the war then it's not valid.

You caveat: Yes, I understand that the people who subscribe to the lies and nonsense that is thrown at them are at least not 100% to blame, simply because in most cases they don't know anything else but to follow blindly. But I still feel that we can't afford to excuse them for their ignorance. So perhaps I wouldn't accuse them of collusion, but I don't think that calling it the way it is and condemning their participation is the wrong thing to do. And at the very least, remaining silent on their participation in these unjust wars as opposed to running around flying the flag in support of them or posting supportive bumper stickers on the backs of their pickup trucks!

p.s. Patrick we'll have to attempt to find something that we can disagree on. ;-)

[lsbskins1]

V., old friend , where is the post where you strongly condemned Pat Robertson for calling for a politcal assasination? I mean, you hate it when reasonable people don't call out the lunitic fringe, right? Political assinations are illegal and bad policy, right?

(I have not read all of your posts, so if I missed it I will appologize in advance.)

[Gorgo]

Quote by: PatrickHenry They are not in league with the Empire; they are its dupes.

Gangsters are duped by the propaganda of their leaders. That doesn't make them anything but gangsters in the eyes of the law, does it? I'm not saying the law is right or wrong. I'm just saying that attacking other countries is illegal. They told people at Nuremberg that following orders is no excuse.