Hearts/Minds Changing in Middle East. Great News!

[trueheart]

PEW Says Hearts/Minds Changing in Middle East. Great News!

It's clear that a desire for freedom is advancing in the Middle East.

This kind of news is so encouraging and it's so discouraging that only the Bloggers or Fox News and a few other news outlets will report on it and it's never in the headlines. If Americans knew this it would make a huge difference in their support of the war.


"... support for terrorism in defense of Islam has "declined dramatically," in the Pew report's words, in Muslim countries, except in Jordan (which has a Palestinian majority) and Turkey, where support has remained a low 14 percent. It has fallen in Indonesia (from 27 to 15 percent since 2002), Pakistan (from 41 to 25 percent since 2004), Morocco (from 40 to 13 percent since 2004), and among Muslims in Lebanon (from 73 to 26 percent since 2002). Support for suicide bombings against Americans in Iraq has also declined. The percentage reporting some confidence in Osama bin Laden is now under 10 percent in Lebanon and Turkey and has fallen sharply in Indonesia.

Similarly, when asked whether democracy was a western way of doing things or could work well in their own country, between 77 and 83 percent in Lebanon, Morocco, Jordan, and Indonesia say it could work in their country--in each case a significant increase from earlier surveys. In Turkey, with its sharp political divisions, and Pakistan, with its checkered history, the percentages hover around 50 percent.


For full article:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion...9/29barone.htm



Things are looking up in Egypt too.

"There were no arguments over the United States, Israel, Palestine, Iraq or any of the other "hot spots" that used to dominate every meal and spill over into tea, coffee and dessert. This time, all conversations were about a small but active opposition movement in Egypt that since December has focused on ending the dictatorship of President Hosni Mubarak."

Mona Eltahawy's article on her visit to Cairo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...5/08/12/AR2005 081201387.html

[GodBlessAmerica]

That's great news.

I'd also like to see the clerics excommunicate Bin Laden and other known terrorists from their religion as a move toward radical extremists not being able to recruit in the name of their religion.

They should have done what their version of excommunication (kicking him out of the religion) is years ago IMO.

[GodBlessAmerica]

The terrorists by the way are recruiting children more now instead of adults because the adults are becoming too smart to want and do the self exploding bomb deal anymore.

I read that a while ago, but can't off the top of my head grab a source for you.

It was a few months ago.

[trueheart]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica That's great news. I'd also like to see the clerics excommunicate Bin Laden and other known terrorists from their religion as a move toward radical extremists not being able to recruit in the name of their religion. They should have done what their version of excommunication (kicking him out of the religion) is years ago IMO.

That's a great idea; but don't know if they have some version of "excommunication". ?

[GodBlessAmerica]

Well, they be-head regularly for not joining, so to get rid of them they must have some solution.

[belverron]

If this doesn't mean that we withdraw soon, then I don't care.

[Osborn F Enready]

The reality is that the Constitution in Iraq is failing miserably to represent all the people, or even a democratic system.

I hate to say it, but I told you so.....and it makes me DAMN sad to have to say it, since we shouldn't be there to begin with.

[lily]

Similarly, when asked whether democracy was a western way of doing things or could work well in their own country, between 77 and 83 percent in Lebanon, Morocco, Jordan, and Indonesia say it could work in their country--in each case a significant increase from earlier surveys. In Turkey, with its sharp political divisions, and Pakistan, with its checkered history, the percentages hover around 50 percent.

Is this the same Jordan that just lobbed a couple of missles at us?

[lily]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Well, they be-head regularly for not joining, so to get rid of them they must have some solution.

I don't think the beheadings had anything to do with joining. I think it had more to do with capturing foreigners.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready The reality is that the Constitution in Iraq is failing miserably to represent all the people, or even a democratic system. I hate to say it, but I told you so.....and it makes me DAMN sad to have to say it, since we shouldn't be there to begin with.

Just wait until the new Iraqi constitution defines the country as an Islamic Republic. How is Bush going to defend almost 2000 dead GI's and hundreds of billions of dollars spent to establish an Islamic Republic? American pressure on the Iraqi's responsible for writing the new constitution must surely be enormous right about now.

[rbuchanan]

Just wait until the new Iraqi constitution defines the country as an Islamic Republic. How is Bush going to defend almost 2000 dead GI's and hundreds of billions of dollars spent to establish an Islamic Republic?

I imagine it will be something akin to Reagan's justification for U.S. support of Bin Laden and Hussein some decades ago...

[trueheart]

Quote by: Zeebadee Just wait until the new Iraqi constitution defines the country as an Islamic Republic. How is Bush going to defend almost 2000 dead GI's and hundreds of billions of dollars spent to establish an Islamic Republic? American pressure on the Iraqi's responsible for writing the new constitution must surely be enormous right about now.

It seems a lot of folks on the Left just can't wait until the Iraqi constitution fails so that BUSH will have failed. So any posing they do as persons who actually care about the Iraqi lives should be taken with a grain of salt.

Apparently, a desire for power in our politics TRUMPS any good fortune the Iraqis might derive from a democratic system,

A democracy by the way is the best form of government for sustaining wildly different political viewpoints without war. (And yes, the Civil War represents our big failure along those lines. Surely even our Leftwingers don't wish that upon the people of Iraq.)

The rest of us hope they get there.

[trueheart]

Quote by: rbuchanan I imagine it will be something akin to Reagan's justification for U.S. support of Bin Laden and Hussein some decades ago...

Bin Laden had not issued a death warrant against America decades ago.

It's a popular form of argument that what we did years ago should dictate what we do now under current circumstances. This indicates an inclination to view CONSISTENCY above all other logical considerations and is a faulty kind of logic.

What matters is what's happening now.....what happened on 9/11 (a major attack), in 2000 a major attack on the USS COLE, what happened in 1998 (bin Laden issued a "fatwah" to kill Americans whereve you can find them)........it no longer matters what happened in the distant past.

But since you mentioned it, why not mention the more recent failure of the Clinton Administration to put in place the elements required to recognize and track the al Qaeda that entered this country in 1999 to plan and execute the 9/11 attack.

That is more recent and more relevant history.

[Samildanach]

Well the odds are at the moment that it will end up as an islamic republic. Bush failing or not doesn't really have anything to do with it.

[rbuchanan]

Quote by: trueheart Bin Laden had not issued a death warrant against America decades ago.

He was no less of a religious nut then than he is now. He just had different targets.

Quote by: trueheart It's a popular form of argument that what we did years ago should dictate what we do now under current circumstances. This indicates an inclination to view CONSISTENCY above all other logical considerations and is a faulty kind of logic.

I think you misunderstand my point of view; I'm not aiming for consistency over pragmatism. I know very well what imperialist monsters the Soviets were across central and western Asia. But supporting somebody like bin Laden in opposition to the Soviets was akin to opening a can of worms. Do you really think it was worth it?

Quote by: trueheart What matters is what's happening now.....what happened on 9/11 (a major attack), in 2000 a major attack on the USS COLE, what happened in 1998 (bin Laden issued a "fatwah" to kill Americans whereve you can find them)........it no longer matters what happened in the distant past.

Actually, it does. Bin Laden might not be around to do all these hideous things if he weren't enabled by the U.S. Government in the '80s.

Quote by: trueheart But since you mentioned it, why not mention the more recent failure of the Clinton Administration to put in place the elements required to recognize and track the al Qaeda that entered this country in 1999 to plan and execute the 9/11 attack. That is more recent and more relevant history.

I didn't mention it because it wasn't related to the topic at hand. I agree entirely, though. Clinton and his administration should be held accountable, perhaps criminally so, for allowing the September 11th attacks to happen. I've never suggested otherwise.

What I did mention, however, was Reagan's support for Hussein, who was reknowned as an extraordinarily brutal dictator well before and after the U.S. Government gave him a helping hand. But you didn't address that.

[trueheart]

Quote by: rbuchanan He was no less of a religious nut then than he is now. He just had different targets. I think you misunderstand my point of view; I'm not aiming for consistency over pragmatism. I know very well what imperialist monsters the Soviets were across central and western Asia. But supporting somebody like bin Laden in opposition to the Soviets was akin to opening a can of worms. Do you really think it was worth it? Actually, it does. Bin Laden might not be around to do all these hideous things if he weren't enabled by the U.S. Government in the '80s. I didn't mention it because it wasn't related to the topic at hand. I agree entirely, though. Clinton and his administration should be held accountable, perhaps criminally so, for allowing the September 11th attacks to happen. I've never suggested otherwise. What I did mention, however, was Reagan's support for Hussein, who was reknowned as an extraordinarily brutal dictator well before and after the U.S. Government gave him a helping hand. But you didn't address that.

Well sometimes the choices aren't good. Back then whatever or whomever opposed the Russians or Iran we would befriend. My understanding is that we gave only rhetorical support for Saddam back then. International politics is complex, as you know, as one sometimes has to deal with the present and deal with the future when it arrives.

[dotcoma]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready The reality is that the Constitution in Iraq is failing miserably to represent all the people, or even a democratic system. I hate to say it, but I told you so.....and it makes me DAMN sad to have to say it, since we shouldn't be there to begin with.

Actually if you knew what was going on with the constitution you would not be so cynical.

The Shiites and Kurds are agreeing on nearly everything, and the Sunni's may oppose the constitution but are trying to do it by voting against it (democratization=assimilation into the system as a viable source of change. In other words, even the opposition by majority is attempting to use the system to voice concern/disagreement. I think you are dead wrong.

[rbuchanan]

Quote by: trueheart Well sometimes the choices aren't good. Back then whatever or whomever opposed the Russians or Iran we would befriend. My understanding is that we gave only rhetorical support for Saddam back then.

Looking the other way while he gassed the Kurds is a bit beyond rhetorical. There was no need to oppose Hussein, and especially no need to to support him.
Truman's administration courted Stalin when both the U.S. and the Soviets were up against the Nazis, but that doesn't justify Truman's actions, either.

Quote by: trueheart International politics is complex, as you know, as one sometimes has to deal with the present and deal with the future when it arrives.

Support of ideological madmen is what it is and has dire consequences, regardless of immediate circumstances. If the U.S. hadn't supported Bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets, there's a chance that the September 11th attacks wouldn't have happened. In retrospect, how can you dismiss that?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: trueheart It seems a lot of folks on the Left just can't wait until the Iraqi constitution fails so that BUSH will have failed. So any posing they do as persons who actually care about the Iraqi lives should be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently, a desire for power in our politics TRUMPS any good fortune the Iraqis might derive from a democratic system,

Same tired old crap, anyone that disagrees with our Dear Leader must be from "the Left".

Right now there's a very good chance that Islamic Law will be a part of any new Iraqi constitution. You better start thinking up new slogans and excuses for how this will be a good thing for us, and worth every dollar, and every lost and ruined life we have paid for it.

[dotcoma]

I forgot a link: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/BAK274117.htm

They are assimilating into the voting base to voice opposition-sounds like democracy