The upper class vs. the lower class

[Autolykos]

Quote by: kingjust Your tellling me that a person making 250k a year can't afford more spam than a mother of 2 making 20k a year, if his taxes go up 2 or 3 percent? Shit, he can probably get enough spam for him his family and a couple of more families even with tax increases.

Perhaps not. Maybe he's in debt up to his eyeballs, as the commercial goes. My point is, there are more factors to consider than income when trying to gauge how much tax one can "afford" to pay. Indeed, the use of "afford" here is subjective, I think. In other words, no one can really make an objective judgement as to how much tax someone else can afford to pay. What we see with tax policy, as with any other aspect of government, is a competition between people who want to impose their preferences on the rest of us. Whoever yells the loudest gets the votes.

- Rob

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: kingjust Your tellling me that a person making 250k a year can't afford more spam than a mother of 2 making 20k a year, if his taxes go up 2 or 3 percent? Shit, he can probably get enough spam for him his family and a couple of more families even with tax increases.

But why should he have to? Just because he makes more?

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Hermes Why would the wealthy want to tax the poor.. They are poor and have no money. The government attempts to correct problems faced by the poor involve raising taxes on beer, cable teevee an cigarettes and transfering that revenue into payrolls; while at the same time screaming bloody blue murder about the rich getting richer. Thankfully for the Democratic party the poor are also not too bright, and are willing to pay more and more for their smokes and still vote in lockstep.

It's what they do, its been happening throughout human existense, the stronger always prey on the weaker and they grow stronger form this. The rich have always capitalised on the struggle of the poor. Its life, its the way its always been. Nada is gonna change this, socialism has failed because man is by instinct a greedy creature and will do what is necessary to succeed and propagate, ye know the phrase "All pigs are equal, but some Pigs are more equal than others".

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: Trotsky It's what they do, its been happening throughout human existense, the stronger always prey on the weaker and they grow stronger form this. The rich have always capitalised on the struggle of the poor. Its life, its the way its always been. Nada is gonna change this, socialism has failed because man is by instinct a greedy creature and will do what is necessary to succeed and propagate, ye know the phrase "All pigs are equal, but some Pigs are more equal than others".

The strong like to make money from everyone in business, so they want to see the whole economy strong and often hire the so called weak people as employees which pays lots of mortgages. It isn't all bad.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica The strong like to make money from everyone in business, so they want to see the whole economy strong and often hire the so called weak people as employees which pays lots of mortgages. It isn't all bad.

Never said it was bad!

[kingjust]

Quote by: Autolykos Perhaps not. Maybe he's in debt up to his eyeballs, as the commercial goes. My point is, there are more factors to consider than income when trying to gauge how much tax one can "afford" to pay. Indeed, the use of "afford" here is subjective, I think. In other words, no one can really make an objective judgement as to how much tax someone else can afford to pay. What we see with tax policy, as with any other aspect of government, is a competition between people who want to impose their preferences on the rest of us. Whoever yells the loudest gets the votes. - Rob

I understand where you're coming from, but I think in reference to taxes, it's about living. You can increase the tax of someone making 250k and he would be fine, but if he isn't than he needs to go to financial counseling. But you can't increase the taxes of a person making under, I would say 80k because of the almighty "cost of living." It doesn't feel good to shop at the dollar store, shit I have done it just because money was tight. But I'm sure you get my point. Also, healthcare and miscellaneous things that come up, increasing the taxes of someone making over 250k, they wouldn't see a drastic effect, but I bet increasing the taxes of someone making under 80k would. I hope you get the point I was trying to make. Honestly it boils down to what you can afford (lifestyle) or what can you get for your money and if you can get taxed a little more with out getting into a pinch, then why not. It helps family keep their heads above water, less fights about money, hell, it might just change society as a whole <----sheesh, what a dreamer!!

[kingjust]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 But why should he have to? Just because he makes more?

No, it's for the great good of society as a whole. Maybe people will stop robbing and stealing because they see a bigger check. I know that is a stretch but hell, all money gets recirculated anyways.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: kingjust all money gets recirculated anyways.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

What about savings accounts, investments, stocks, etc.?


Luckily, people can put most of their money in those type of tax free investments and get around having to pay large income taxes.

[kingjust]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. What about savings accounts, investments, stocks, etc.? Luckily, people can put most of their money in those type of tax free investments and get around having to pay large income taxes.

Logically speaking, do those savings, investments and stocks stay stagnant for ever? NO, they do get used and "recirculated" back into the system by spending it. And just to let you know that they are not tax free. You don't pay taxes while it's accruing it's percentage, but you take it out.....that's a whole new level. You pay taxes on divedends from savings, when you pull out from 401k, you get taxed, and stocks are the same. Any money you make is going to be taxed. The only money you do not get taxed on are child support, alimony (being that they can consider it income) and sole propriertary businesses where you can write off about anything, eventually being more than what you pay in taxes and will get in return more because of the write offs. So who obviously doesn't know what they are talking about again????

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: kingjust Logically speaking, do those savings, investments and stocks stay stagnant for ever? NO, they do get used and "recirculated" back into the system by spending it. And just to let you know that they are not tax free. You don't pay taxes while it's accruing it's percentage, but you take it out.....that's a whole new level. You pay taxes on divedends from savings, when you pull out from 401k, you get taxed, and stocks are the same. Any money you make is going to be taxed. The only money you do not get taxed on are child support, alimony (being that they can consider it income) and sole propriertary businesses where you can write off about anything, eventually being more than what you pay in taxes and will get in return more because of the write offs. So who obviously doesn't know what they are talking about again????

I was thinking more along the lines of offshore accounts.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I was thinking more along the lines of offshore accounts.

Offshore accounts for American Citizens are only helpful if the countries where those accounts refuse to cooperate with the IRS.

The biggest thing the wealthy do in America to avoid taxation, especially inheritance tax, is to become Austrailian citizens because they don't have an estate tax and make American's into Austrailians easily.

Some obscure knowledge, but I thought you'd find it intersting.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: kingjust I understand where you're coming from, but I think in reference to taxes, it's about living.

Even so, who is anyone to say that his opinions should be the "law of the land" and not someone else's?

Quote by: kingjust You can increase the tax of someone making 250k and he would be fine, but if he isn't than he needs to go to financial counseling. But you can't increase the taxes of a person making under, I would say 80k because of the almighty "cost of living." It doesn't feel good to shop at the dollar store, shit I have done it just because money was tight. But I'm sure you get my point. Also, healthcare and miscellaneous things that come up, increasing the taxes of someone making over 250k, they wouldn't see a drastic effect, but I bet increasing the taxes of someone making under 80k would. I hope you get the point I was trying to make. Honestly it boils down to what you can afford (lifestyle) or what can you get for your money and if you can get taxed a little more with out getting into a pinch, then why not. It helps family keep their heads above water, less fights about money, hell, it might just change society as a whole <----sheesh, what a dreamer!!

I really don't understand where you're coming from. Taxes make everyone poorer as a result. If you don't know how that's the case, I will gladly explain it to you.

Changing society is impossible. Since society is made up of people, changing it means changing people. As history and experience should teach us (if they haven't already), one cannot change other people -- they can only change themselves.

- Rob

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Offshore accounts for American Citizens are only helpful if the countries where those accounts refuse to cooperate with the IRS. The biggest thing the wealthy do in America to avoid taxation, especially inheritance tax, is to become Austrailian citizens because they don't have an estate tax and make American's into Austrailians easily. Some obscure knowledge, but I thought you'd find it intersting.

Yes, interesting.


All I know is that there are many people out there who have much more money at their disposal than their income tax statements would have you think. It's not hard to get around income taxes.