The upper class vs. the lower class

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 LOL! I love how the liberal spinmasters of this board have done a flip flop on the topic and basically made up a complete lie that the upper class take money from the lower class! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!! If these projects are so dispicable, THEN WHY NOT END TAXES?! Obviously you lower class morons are getting screwed over by these taxes, so why not end them?!

Number one T-Man, it was not the "lower class morons" who were complaining, it was the "middle-class morons" who were complaining. And I notice that you did not respond to my posts directly. So why don't I take up what it appears you are responding to, which is the assertion that big business is responsible for the influx of illegal immigration. Are all the illegal immigrants coming over here and selling drugs and sending the money back home? Are they setting up extortion rings? The answer is that they are not. They are working for hotels and resturants and construction companies, either using fake social security info or worse yet, none at all (creating a situation where these companies are without a doubt knowingly breaking the law) but in both instances, working for lower wages than Americans will usually accept. They are standing on street corners, offering their services as day laborers, where upper and upper-middle class citizens hire them to work on a temp basis for their constuction or landscaping businesses or simply as cheap available handy-men. They work for huge growers, again for the same reasons. Big business and upper-income people reap the greatest benefit from this arrangement. But, of course, I am not particularlly offended, because, as we showed earlier, the upper-class, under our progressive system do, in fact, carry the greatest load of the cost of their health care and schooling, etc. It just goes to show, that no matter how much you wish it were so, there is no free lunch.

[bishop]

get the government to cut spending, then you can talk about cutting taxes..

you already got your tax cut with bush in office.. did you get any cut in spending? nope. it's amazing how people just act as it we can just continue running massive deficits without consequence - while they trumpet their monotonous "eliminate taxes" mantra..

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 LOL! I love how the liberal spinmasters of this board have done a flip flop on the topic and basically made up a complete lie that the upper class take money from the lower class! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!! If these projects are so dispicable, THEN WHY NOT END TAXES?! Obviously you lower class morons are getting screwed over by these taxes, so why not end them?!

Your behaviour is unacceptable, now grow up.

[lily]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 It seems to me that there are some people here who think that the lower class have a right to use the government to make the upper class pay for the lower class' services. I think that's the biggest flaw of government. Anyone else?

Are the upper class paying for the lower class? I don't think so. This country couldn't exist without the middle class.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: lily Are the upper class paying for the lower class? I don't think so. This country couldn't exist without the middle class.

A flat out lie.

The upper class pay the bulk of the taxes that in turn pay for the servies that the lower class use.

[bishop]

you already got a tax cut out of bush almighty.. i think it's fair to demand that we see some real spending cuts before getting another bogus tax cut..

why do i call it bogus? because it isn't a tax cut - it's an extension of credit from china. that's how this bogus "tax cut" is being financed - on loan from the great chinese.

[lily]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 A flat out lie. The upper class pay the bulk of the taxes that in turn pay for the servies that the lower class use.

I disagree with you and you call it a flat out lie? Um.........ok.
Try running this country without the middle class. The rich may pay more taxes (even with all their tax breaks and loopholes) being in a higher tax bracket....but there's a hell of a lot more middle class then there is upper class.

[PatrickHenry]

tman has his own thread: I hate to do this but...

[lily]

..........just taking my time, getting to know people........I sent you a pm, but it says your box is full.

[RVonse]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 LOL! If these projects are so dispicable, THEN WHY NOT END TAXES?! Obviously you lower class morons are getting screwed over by these taxes, so why not end them?!

You can't end taxes until something is done about upper class pork lobby's slopping their faces up in Washington. The spending of the upper class pork projects and needless wars is way out of control right now. Personally, if I could prevent any of this, I would. But the only thing I get to do is vote between 2 bad choices every 4 years.

[lsbskins1]

t-man, do you have me on ignore? Of course, you won't answer if you do, and if you do, why do you ignore people who don't throw insults, just facts?

[Osborn F Enready]

Bishop said:
you already got your tax cut with bush in office.. did you get any cut in spending? nope. it's amazing how people just act as it we can just continue running massive deficits without consequence - while they trumpet their monotonous "eliminate taxes" mantra..

I say:
Who is this aimed at?

I say eliminate taxes because the government has shown it can't be trusted when allowed to make its own money. It doesn't even disclose all of its money, or back it, let alone be trusted to make it without oversight other than the corrupt by creation Federal Reserve.

I have addressed deficit spending, by eliminating all those who conceive and enable it. ALL OF THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AGENCIES WE HAVE ALLOWED TO BE CREATED SINCE THE NEW DEAL.

RVonse said:
But the only thing I get to do is vote between 2 bad choices every 4 years.

I say:
So are you satisfied with that? Written your congressman about only having two parties represented out of 7 in the debates last election? Demanded your local officials look into it yet? Joined a group, or signed a petition for demand of redress of grievance yet?

I am not trying to be an ass, just pointing out that change MUST emanate FROM the people. We should have marched on Washington the day the Patriot Act passed, but we were all stuck looking like the proverbial deer in the headlights after 9-11.

Get over it folks, the government is out to destroy your rights, your way of life, and your concept of ideology in this country.

Buy an AK, while you can, and stock up on ammo. It would be a better investment than gold as the rest of Bush's term plays out to WWIII.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: RVonse You've got to be kidding. There is nothing but special interest pork going through Congress right now. Who do you think pays for all that crap. The people who make less than 200K/year are the ones getting screwed for it, thats who. If I made a list of all the useless pork put through Congress by upper class lobbies, this thread would be over 100 pages in length. But the biggest services the rich are ripping everyone off right now is with health care. They have seen to it that illegal aliens can come to America and use our hospitals free of charge. Its the middle class people that end up with most of the bill. There is more upper class welfare than poor welfare in America these days.

The pork you are referring to are the politicians sending jobs back to their own states.
I would also like to see less of it, but most goes to things like roads, which ends up hitting all classes with employment while fixing our roads.
Under the Constitution, illegals are allowed education and access to our medical stuff which I agree with you is a problem. We need to make some changes regarding illegals in the Constitution.

[bishop]

Quote by: osborn Who is this aimed at? I say eliminate taxes because the government has shown it can't be trusted when allowed to make its own money. It doesn't even disclose all of its money, or back it, let alone be trusted to make it without oversight other than the corrupt by creation Federal Reserve. I have addressed deficit spending, by eliminating all those who conceive and enable it. ALL OF THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AGENCIES WE HAVE ALLOWED TO BE CREATED SINCE THE NEW DEAL.

wasn't aimed at you.

i think it's a reasonable demand, however, that since taxes have been cut - we should see some spending cuts as well. and there is absolutely no mature reason why it is unreasonable to
demand spending cuts to occur before new tax cuts are introduced. bush already cut taxes and we haven't seen any spending cuts. your diatribe about only allowing "constitutional agencies" to remain is fine and dandy - let's see that actually happen before we sink ourselves deeper into debt. you are delusional if you think that federal spending will go from A to Z overnight. making incremental demands is a much better and reasonable way to proceed.

to cut taxes further, without any coinciding spending cuts, would make you just as fiscally irresponsible as bush almighty.

[RVonse]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready [Buy an AK, while you can, and stock up on ammo. It would be a better investment than gold as the rest of Bush's term plays out to WWIII.

I would love to buy a couple of AK rifles but they don't sell them at K-mart or ebay. Do you know where I could go to purchase a couple of AKs and ammo? This is a serious question for me.


A hunting rifle just doesn't seem like enough firepower for the preservation of individual liberty IMO.

[Osborn F Enready]

RVonse said:
I would love to buy a couple of AK rifles but they don't sell them at K-mart or ebay. Do you know where I could go to purchase a couple of AKs and ammo? This is a serious question for me.

A hunting rifle just doesn't seem like enough firepower for the preservation of individual liberty IMO.

I say:
Here here brother, I am with you on that.

Seriously, I don't know how much you know about guns, or like them, but I will provide any info you need since guns are my thing.

I will say for under $500.00 American, you can't find a better assault weapon than the AK-47 or one of its variants, or a better rifle than the SKS, or one of its variants. They both can be had in many calibers, but the one I reccommend is 7.62X39 for superior hard target penetration over the .223 AR's and more stopping power on soft targets.

AK's, the better ones run groups around 4-5 inches at 200 yards, 3 shot groups. They are easily able to hit man size targets at 500 yards, consistently in the kill zone. They are easily cleaned, maintained, and reliable in EVERY enviroment due to its loose, battlefield tolerances. Extended mag, 30 Round clips are ALL OVER the place right now. I have seen 10-30 round mags for $100.00 American, and 1100 round cases of ammo for as cheap as $129.00 consistently.

The SKS is a longer barreled, less easily articulated in close quarters, battle rifle. It can access targets over 500 yards, but more than 650 is pushing it. It groups better, more consistently than the AK's, due to the longer barrel, increased gas time in the action. It comes standard with a 10 round internal magazine, that is super reliable, but not what I would want for defending myself or my family.
You can buy conversions to make the SKS accept AK-47 Magazines, standard and extended, and they feed well if you buy a better brand. (Norinco)

I would have to ask you, do you want new or used?

If you want new, gun shows are the best places to find the good deals. You will be able to walk out of a gun show with a new AK, 5 extra 30 round mags, 1100 rounds of ammo for about $500.00.

If you want to go through a dealer, shop around a little and see who specializes in assault type weapons, as they will actually know what they are talking about. If there are none locally for you, how do you feel about mail-order?

Here are some stats on the 7.62X39 vs 30-30 vs 7.62X51 (NATO)

On the other hand, the 7.62x39 (on paper, according to gunsandammomag.com) is as follows:
7.62x39 125gr hp
Velocity - Muzzle: 2400 100yds: 2102 200yds:1826
Energy - Muzzle: 1600 100yds: 1227 200yds:926
7.62x39 150gr sp
Velocity - Muzzle: 2300 100yds: 2052 200yds: 1821
Energy - Muzzle: 1636 100yds: 1144 200yds: 800

Compared to the (always compared) 30/30 Winchester:
30/30 125gr hp
Velocity - Muzzle: 2570 100yds: 2090 200yds: 1660
Energy - Muzzle: 1830 100yds: 1210 200yds: 770
30/30 150gr sp
Velocity - Muzzle: 2390 100yds: 2018 200yds: 1684
Energy - Muzzle: 1902 100yds: 1356 200yds: 944

But even more noteable (to me at least) is the 7.62x39 compared to the .308:
7.62x51 125gr hp
Velocity - 200yds: 2243 300yds: 1855 400yds: 1516
Energy - 200yds: 1397 300yds: 955 400yds: 636
7.62x51 150gr sp
Velocity - 200yds: 2179 300yds: 1893 400yds: 1663
Energy - 200yds: 1581 300yds: 1193 400yds: 888

That's as close to apples and apples as I can get, using same weights, bullet types, and even brands of ammo. At 100 yards, the 7.62x39 is at least equal to the caliber that MANY of us killed our first deer with.

YES, I did jump to the 200 yard line with the .308, BUT I acknowledge that and use it only to show that the x39 appears to be as capable as the .308 minus about 170 yards.

Great link about real world testing with AK and ammo at range.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=170419

Great link for about ANYTHING you want to know about an AK, including where and how to buy, as well as what to look for and look out for. Recommended gunsmiths, etc.
http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/index.html


PM me if you want more information, I would happily reply.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Gorgo Most people think that the wealthy have the right to use the government to make the lower classes pay for the upper classes services.

I have two questions to ask here:
1. What is your basis for saying "most people"?
2. How could the "lower classes" pay for the "upper classes'" services?

Quote by: Gorgo While they do that, I would agree that government has to attempt to correct the problems that ensue.

Isn't this role mutually exculsive with the one you allege above?

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Isbskins1 Who can afford to have their tax rates go up?

My answer is, "no one". Now, my question to you is, what makes you think that anyone can (let alone should) tell anyone else how much tax they can "afford" to pay?

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: lsbskins1 A progressive tax is not class warfare. Rich people drive on the roads, are protected by the same army, and often send their kids to the same schools.

Most money for roads and public schools comes from state and local governments, not the federal government (although the trend is in the opposite direction).

Quote by: Isbskins1 They get social security checks when they reach 65 or 62, depending on choice, have their bank deposits protected up to what FDIC covers, get the same police and fire protection, same water, same CIA, same Medicare,etc. So what if they don't get welfare payments. Neither does anyone in the top four fiths. Give me a friggin break, please.

Police and fire protection are not the same in all areas. Same with water systems.

- Rob

[kingjust]

Quote by: Autolykos My answer is, "no one". Now, my question to you is, what makes you think that anyone can (let alone should) tell anyone else how much tax they can "afford" to pay? - Rob

Your tellling me that a person making 250k a year can't afford more spam than a mother of 2 making 20k a year, if his taxes go up 2 or 3 percent? Shit, he can probably get enough spam for him his family and a couple of more families even with tax increases.