Pope Seeking Immunity

[PatrickHenry]

He says he's the Head of of State of the Vatican so he can't be sued.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...MPLATE=DEFAULT
or truthout: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/081905S.shtml

The lawyer who is suing Pope Benedict XVI in Texas for allegedly covering up the sexual abuse of children by a seminarian said Wednesday he would challenge the U.S. diplomatic recognition of the Vatican if the pope is given immunity in the case. The pope's lawyers have already asked President Bush to certify Benedict's immunity from liability in the civil lawsuit since he is a head of state - the Vatican city-state. Attorney Daniel Shea, who is representing one of three boys suing the pope, told a news conference Wednesday that Bush could abstain from confirming Benedict's immunity. In that case, the judge handling the case, Judge Lee Rosenthal of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Texas in Houston, would decide how to proceed, he said. But if Bush grants the immunity, Shea said he would challenge the constitutionality of the U.S. diplomatic recognition of the Holy See as a sovereign state on First Amendment grounds. "The Holy See is a church," Shea said. Joseph Ratzinger - Benedict's former name - is named as a defendant in the civil lawsuit, accused of conspiring with the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston to cover up the abuse of three boys during the mid-1990s. The suit is seeking unspecified monetary damages.

Is the Catholic Church a church or a country?

[GodBlessAmerica]

The Catholic Church is a church, but the Pope does have diplomatic immunity because of the Vatican being some kind of principality in Italy (I think).

I can assure you though, that no Pope or Catholics wanted homosexual pedophiles to join the Church claiming a calling and then instead molesting various people.

The problem with the homosexual pedophiles in various churches has caused many changes in institutions.
Doctors usually only see patients with nurses in the room now.
Teachers try and leave the doors open in schools so there is on privacy with students.
I think I also read the Church now also adopted a never alone policy with anyone, along with the open doors and so on.

America has a very open society and I suspect homosexual pedophiles are a lot more active throughout Europe and third world nations where the societies aren't as open. Those places need the same changes for the better, obviously.

There may have been a couple of priests that have gone after girls, but it seems 99% or more were these pedophiles chasing boys. All of it is horrible stuff for sure.

[GodBlessAmerica]

PH, I do need to add one thing.

In the confessional the Priest is able to have intimate conversations with the person confessing their sins, but though they are alone, they have the separation of a wall with a screen between them. So, they are alone in a confessional, but are unable to get access to touching each other.

I bring that up because with the Church "Open doors" policy, in a confession you do not see the Priest alone with the parishoner. There is a GORELICK type wall there at all times though.

[PatrickHenry]

I think the Roman Catholic Church should have to decide which entity it is. A church or a nation.

If it's a nation, then priests and bishops should receive diplomatic immunity to bugger all the boys and girls they like, until they are deported to their nation. If a church, then why is there a head of state? And why should American non-catholics curry favor with that church? What can they do for us, or against us?

[belverron]

I think he does qualify for diplomatic immunity, technically. And the first amendment doesn't stretch that far.

[GodBlessAmerica]

PA, I think that the molestation issues are handled on a more regional scale, especially since at this time it is almost only an American thing right now.

Bringing in the Pope into what appears to be a American regional Texas issue is like trying to bring in President Clinton to court on charges over what Sandy Berger did on his own apparently in stealing 9-11 commission private papers.
Granted Berger or perhaps the Texas priest might have committed a crime, but to connect a Clinton or Pope to something they had no direct connection to is indeed too far stretch and to try and bring them directly into the court action might be way out of line.

Maybe my opinion would change if the facts of the cases were different than what I have seen so far.
If the issue changes, my opinion might as well.

Let's say there are memos from the current Pope as a Cardnal saying molestation in Texas is cool... Then I would say the Pope might have to go in.
If it was found out as an example that the break in of file stealing by Sandy Berger was connected to an order by Bill Clinton, likewise I would say Bill has to go in.

Hope the examples explain why I think what I do, have a nice night.

[Jack]

From Wikipedia:

Vatican City — formally State of the Vatican City, or Vatican City State (Latin: Status Civitatis Vaticanæ and Italian: Stato della Città del Vaticano) — is a sovereign landlocked enclave surrounded by Rome, Italy. The modern-day home of the popes, it is the smallest independent state in the world in terms of area and population. It is administered by the Holy See, the ecclesiastical seat of the Roman Catholic Church and its Eastern Rite. The Head of State is the Pope; the Heads of Government are the Secretary of State and Governor of Vatican City (sometimes referred to as the President of Vatican City). Currently, they are Pope Benedict XVI, a German; Angelo Cardinal Sodano, an Italian; and Edmund Cardinal Szoka, an American of Polish descent. The governance of the Holy See is separate, consisting of the Roman Curia in turn consisting of members of the College of Cardinals. The Heads of Government are concurrently agents of the Roman Curia. The city takes its name from Mons Vaticanus, also known as Vatican Hill. Mons Vaticanus and the adjacent Vatican Fields upon which St. Peter's Basilica and its Sistine Chapel, Apostolic Palace and museums were built, predates Christendom.

From the National Library of Medicine:

The proportions of heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles among sex offenders against children: an exploratory study. Freund K, Watson RJ. Department of Behavioural Sexology, Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, Toronto, Ont., Canada. Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1, while the ratio of gynephiles to androphiles among the general population is approximately 20:1. The present study investigated whether the etiology of preferred partner sex among pedophiles is related to the etiology of preferred partner sex among males preferring adult partners. Using phallometric test sensitivities to calculate the proportion of true pedophiles among various groups of sex offenders against children, and taking into consideration previously reported mean numbers of victims per offender group, the ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Let's say there are memos from the current Pope as a Cardnal saying molestation in Texas is cool... Then I would say the Pope might have to go in.

Funny. That's a lot like what is really happening if you READ THE ARTICLE.

[rmnunez]

The Pope has sovereign immunity, he is the formally recognized head of state of the Vatican. A claim need not name the Pope to show Church liability and the Pope himself owns nothing so including him doesn't enhance the recovery. Its a reprehensible publicity stunt and I would hope the Bar censure this attorney for abuse of process.

[GodBlessAmerica]

PH, that is merely a lawyer claim in an attempt to bring in the global church and wealth of perhaps the Vatican into play for punitive damages.
There is literally no way this current Pope as a Cardinal was involved in conspiracy with any part of the American Church because he had a very different and specific job that would have kept him away from such matters.
He was Pope John Paul the Second's personal assistant for well over twenty years and chief theological scholar and writer of most all speeches and articles of the Vatican and Church.

The regional stuff was handled by the local Cardinals PH, like Cardinal Law in was it Boston?

I do agree with rmnunez above that this a tactic by the attorney, but I think it's to go after a bigger bank account not a mere stunt. Some of these churches went into bankruptcy over these court cases with all these ridiculously high awards have emptied most of the bank accounts the plaintiffs would like to draw from.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Is the Catholic Church a church or a country?

Its more of a theater than anything.

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica but to connect a Clinton or Pope to something they had no direct connection to is indeed too far stretch and to try and bring them directly into the court action might be way out of line.

Ratzo did have a direct connection. He signed the directives to hide these perverts from the cops. Thats harboring fugitives. The cult needs to be shown, very explicitly, they are not above our laws.

If Ratzinger is worthy of being POPE, for Christs sake, that means he is innocent of these charges and should set a good example for his cult and show up for court. He looks guilty as hell for not being a man and answering the charges.

[Trotsky]

The Catholic church is a religious entity, the Vatican is a country, with its own government, its own embassies etc etc etc. Therefore if under international law the leader of a country with diplomatic ties to the United States has immunity from legal action, the already has immunity.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Its more of a theater than anything. Ratzo did have a direct connection. He signed the directives to hide these perverts from the cops. Thats harboring fugitives. The cult needs to be shown, very explicitly, they are not above our laws. If Ratzinger is worthy of being POPE, for Christs sake, that means he is innocent of these charges and should set a good example for his cult and show up for court. He looks guilty as hell for not being a man and answering the charges.

Daniel, if the Pope turned up and accepted direct responsibility for every attrocity commited by a catholic, in the name of catholics or in the name of the church itself since the foundation if the church you would still have a problem with the RCC. I'm no great admirer of the RCC myself but you are in no position to pass any sort of logical judgement regarding it as you are blinded by sheer hatred and contempt

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Trotsky you are in no position to pass any sort of logical judgement regarding it as you are blinded by sheer hatred and contempt

If it is hate that I feel, it is well grounded in facts. The Rat (zinger) bastid, signed the document that placed the cult above the law of the land:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...020400,00.html Vatican Told Bishops to Cover Up Sex Abuse Expulsion threat in secret documents Read the 1962 Vatican document (PDF file) Antony Barnett, public affairs editor Sunday August 17, 2003 The Observer The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church. The Observer has obtained a 40-year-old confidential document from the secret Vatican archive which lawyers are calling a 'blueprint for deception and concealment'. One British lawyer acting for Church child abuse victims has described it as 'explosive'. <snip> Lawyers point to a letter the Vatican sent to bishops in May 2001 clearly stating the 1962 instruction was in force until then. The letter is signed by Cardinal Ratzinger, the most powerful man in Rome beside the Pope and who heads the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - the office which ran the Inquisition in the Middle Ages.

Trotsky, if anything, you are blindly defending this criminal. The document demands harboring fugitive priests........or be excommunicated. Ironic RATzinger persecutes those who would rat on a pervert priest. This secrecy begets tyranny and continues criminal acts by protecting the culprits. May they perish in hell, with the pope.

or repent.

[Chris]

Read the 1962 Vatican document (PDF file)

[gr8fuldaniel]

Thanx Chris, I went back and added the link before I saw your post

[Trotsky]

I'm not blindly defending anybody. If Ratzinger wrote that document as you claim, why was he not prosecuted before he became pope and therefore attained immunity by becoming head of state?? I have nothing but disdain for the catholic church, but you can't have one approach for one group and a seperate one for another. The RCC has a lot to answer for, prosecutions for sexual assault and harbouring the guilty are needed. I refuse to comment untill a person has been successfully prosecuted in a court of law.

[rmnunez]

The Pope is a member of the clergy, priests surrender all claims to property upon admission into the clergy making a vow of poverty with varying strictures. A claim against the Pope himself would be premised on a regard for the Catholic Church as some sort of corporation, a multinational one headquartered in Rome. It is closer to a corporation than a state, but its a beneficient rather than lucrative operation. Catholic Church assets like the fabulous art collections probably are inadequate to the compensation sought given the number of cases alleged. Dispossessing the Catholic Church in Rome would not only be inequitable, but wouldn't help address the problem -pedophilia among priests.

I think the best solution would involve the institution of adequate monitoring and oversight in the handling of children. The contact with children is inevitable given the educational and medical focus in the Church's beneficent efforts, I'd have expected a higher incidence of pedophilia here than among farmers or factory workers. If its an occupational hazard the Church should provide some protections and institute safeguards to screen-out potential pedophiles, establish greater psychological counseling for tempted priests. Priests are needed, just not of this sort, what isn't needed is an impoverished Church less able to cope with the problem.

[Chris the Chees]

There is literally no way this current Pope as a Cardinal was involved in conspiracy with any part of the American Church because he had a very different and specific job that would have kept him away from such matters.

Actually, this is not true, from what I have read anyway. I believe that the current Pope sent out a letter stating that all cases of child molestation would be dealt with by the church, rather than the legitimate civil authorities.

Which should certainly be illegal, I will try and find the source later, unfortunately I'm late for work now...

[rmnunez]

I think the institutional handling of the matter may need review, but wouldn't be jumping to conclusions on illegality simply because they opted to deal with the issue internally. I'd expect the Church would need to develop uniform policies for their global operations which wouldn't take into account local legal idiosyncrases. It seems likely the first hint of any problem would emerge in a work setting and this means the Church would find out first. There are gradations in the allegations of perversion and the Church authority first learning of this would be better able to determine their veracity, the risk an alleged offender poses in light of his (or her) character and circumstances. There is the matter of scandal and the punitive character of liability under US law where a practice of automatic reporting regardless of any estimation might encourage the notion there were lots of pedophiles among the clergy and hence that greater punishment ought to be exacted. The Church is well-equipped to deal with these sort of problems and has a great interest in dealing with them in a discrete manner as they rely on public trust and perceptions of their high moral standards. Furthermore, given the lack of vocations, it would be wiser for the Church to try and 'recycle' possible offenders who have desirable atributes and this pedophilic flaw.