marriage ammendment

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready (sigh) Where is Charlie Brown, I have a football for him to kick. No, seriously.... I say: With you saying things like this, I can't possibly debate you. Where is morality defined in law, that we are abandoning it? Where is morality for ALL individuals described? Since when is any government in the U.S. system, empowered to rule over belief? Silly.

Everything that is done in government and elsewhere has beliefs in it somewhere. They aren't necessarily religious, but they are beliefs.

We have basic codes of right and wrong.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 God damned right, osborne. How did the government even get its nose into the business of marriage? How dare they say what we can or can not do with our lives!

But they can and they do, and that's what a society does.

[Osborn F Enready]

Marilyn said: Everything that is done in government and elsewhere has beliefs in it somewhere.

I say:
All well and good, until it infringes upon other beliefs as individuals.

Marilyn said: They aren't necessarily religious, but they are beliefs. We have basic codes of right and wrong.

I say:
Yes, they are called rights, and those rights signify the lines upon which government MAY NOT set its course. Government is put in place to protect and defend rights of the individual, not remove them using the Constitution as a crutch.

Marilyn said: But they can and they do, and that's what a society does

I say:
Society only does this until it is taken over by an outside, or inside aggressor.

Our society has a built in, legal trigger for revolt, and it is clearly worded, and contains all of our rights. Since they have done away with checks and balances, we have the green light constitutionally to revolt, and that is as simple as it gets. The question is when, and things like this amendment only add fuel to the fire.

This is not a Christian nation, though many live here, and many helped to form it.

This is an open nation, with our rights held sacred, one of them being the FREEDOM to believe whatever we so choose, and the government DOES NOT have the right to base laws of favoritism based on religious script.

Marriage licenses were only made legal so that the scourge of blood borne diseases could be found before being passed between couples wishing to conceive. That time has now passed, and the marriage license should be removed from law. Any person has access to a clinic now, and even those with limited financial means can get basic blood tests if they actually try to get them done.

Marriage is between two partners who wish to devote their life to the love and service of another, regardless of sex. Christians don't own this right, as long as it involves federal tax breaks, and the Federal Government doesn't own this right as long as it is religion based, so why not let us just drop the entire charade, and empower the people as was intended?

[Mr. Jaggers]

http://www.volconvo.com/forums/showt...429#post248429

[Boetie]

Bush Jr should just drop this marriage ammendment charade and come out of the closet.

His twenty years of getting drunk everynight was his way of not going to bed with Laura.

His overkill wearing the McFlight suit was his way of saying he really wanted to wear a scarf, a white shirt unbuttoned but tied in a knot at the bottom, tight latex pants, and sandals with toenails painted red.

His overkill with the cowboy talk was his way of saying he wanted to bend his wrist a little, swish his hips and go after Saddam with a mascara brush. Saddam is a rough one you know.

Bush Jr overkills is his way of hiding his effeminate male side he so desperately wants to bring out.

[bob60292]

I think that any form of sex between 2 consenting adults in the privacy of their own home is an issue between the 2 consenting adults and God. The government has become a vicious octopus in far too many areas of the people's lives and finances alreadry. Whether gay marriage is right or wrong is not the issue. The issue is freedom and the right to choose. Though one may call it sin, as it well might be, the bolders in one's own eye should be enough of a deterrent from attacking the speck in another's. We are all sinners in one way or another; yet we still feel we deserve to persue t comfort and stability in life.
Even if you don't condone same sex marriage you might, at least, still recognize the social, and safety benefits of a monogomous relationship, as compared with its alternative.

[gr8fuldaniel]

The ONLY reason they are parading this ammendment out at this time; is to get the christo-fascist zombie brigade to the polls. It will fail, but while they are disenfranchising the gays, they will also put a tick next to whatever (R) happens to be on the ballot. This is because they cannot think for themselves. They vote as they are told to vote in church. Zombies!

......and the hypocrites will disconnect politically until the next opportunity to vote against human rights. Gays and Abortion, will never be defeated, what would they use to rally the ignorant?

[Mr. Jaggers]

It is said that politics makes for strange bedfellows. Need must it be so, for there are no more queer ones than religion and politics.

[bob60292]

yes gr8, there are "zombies" as you say. Some of them are misguded christians; some are not. Before you criticize christianity, though, read the New Testament. You will find that the trash George W. passes off as christianity, is not at all christian. He is what might be called a false prophet, or one of the several antichrists that have persecuted the innocent. The wrath he inspires and deserves should fall on him and on those elitist human beings who own him.
Christianity does not provide cooperate war mongers with an excuse throw bombs. Christianity says that "he who picks up the sword will perish by the sword".Jesus showed the greatest love of all to what we would call sinners, saving the harsh words only for those who persecuted them. It asks people to pray for their enemies and do good even to those who persecute you. It says to turn the other cheek, and" let he who has never sinned cast the first stone'. It asks us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. It tells us to visit the imprisoned, feed the hungry, heal the sick. Nowhere are we even remotely asked to support the murders of innocent young military men and women, noncombatants and children at the receiving ends of bombs, for the purpose of making the poor poorer, the elite ruling class richer, and the middle class non exixtent.
I think you are decieving yourself if you equate all" ChristianZombies" with the evils that are manifest in Bush., They are not essentially bad, or stupid from a worldly perspective. Many are simply in need of true christian education and tactful instruction that that your " zomby label", though accurate, might only discourage.

[bishop]

i've said it before and i'll say it again - ever since they passed gay marriage here in MA, the universe has slowly been crumbling apart. it's only a matter of time before all of us fall into oblivion.

[/sarcasm]


i personally have pretty negative views towards homosexuality, and i definitely won't go out of my way to support their agenda. that said, my personal views haven't prevented me from having very close friendships with homosexuals, and it doesn't instantly result in me supporting bigoted politicians' attempts to legislate discrimination.

joe biden has it right:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/....ap/index.html

Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Delaware, said Sunday that the amendment is unnecessary. "We already have a law, the Defense of Marriage Act. ... Nobody has violated that law. There's been no challenge to that law. Why do we need a constitutional amendment?" Biden said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

this proposal to legislate discrimination is nothing more than some bogus political stunt that the republicans are using to get the bible thumpers all hot and bothered. they're desperate not to lose in the upcoming elections, and they hope that this ploy will work in their favor. and in the meantime, it's just additional embarrassment for our nation, when these dipshits should be working on IMPORTANT issues like finding a way out of the iraqi quagmire, putting us on a path towards a balanced budget and debt reduction, securing our borders, fixing our time-bomb entitlement programs, fixing our educational system which has been failing for decades now, etc....

banning gay marriage is a total joke as far as our real priorities go. any intelligent person would agree with that assessment imo. i hope these wastes of air get slaughtered in the upcoming elections for putting their reelection/party concerns ahead of our nation's more important concerns.

[bob60292]

Bishop
The whole issue is probably inspired by the controlled media to distract the public from the real issues of government incompetance and/or criminality. That is what happened with Bill Clinton. Monica was a blessing of a scandal. Everyone forgot about his unamerican conduct in relation to Red China, as well as other difficult issues. The little spot on the sweater couldn't get him imprisoned for treason. Neither could his smelly cigar.

[Scribbler1]

I think the controlled media is simply the messenger. It's just a classic example of pandering to the only people left you can count on, which in Bush's case is the religious right, the poster boy for homophobia. And by that I mean homoPHOBIA. A lot of people don't like gays for various reasons but the religious far right is TERRIFIED of them and they are among the last people who aren't sick of George Bush as our president.

To put it another way, George W. Bush is the new millenniums Joseph McCarthy. The only difference is instead of making some people think there are Communists under their beds they think gays are hiding there.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I think the controlled media is simply the messenger. It's just a classic example of pandering to the only people left you can count on, which in Bush's case is the religious right, the poster boy for homophobia. And by that I mean homoPHOBIA. A lot of people don't like gays for various reasons but the religious far right is TERRIFIED of them and they are among the last people who aren't sick of George Bush as our president. To put it another way, George W. Bush is the new millenniums Joseph McCarthy. The only difference is instead of making some people think there are Communists under their beds they think gays are hiding there.

Well, that you have to mischaracterize everyone whose righteousness threatens you as a guy you do not understand or even know about is your affair. The fact of the matter, though, is those same people whom you so dislike for being the defenders of decency DID elect and then re-elect President George W Bush. So the notion that he has to whip up support by doing something you consider bad really is a non-starter.

As for the silly idea of "phobia", it is nowhere stated that anyone dislikes "gays". How they identify themselves is their business, and you are free to do what you like in your own home so long as you do not involve children. It is a matter of values, which I understand the left really hates. Where W is concerned you could not be more wrong, because he is a genuine human being who is loved by Americans of all kinds. The bottom line is your little thesis is empty.

:-)

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Saint Vern The fact of the matter, though, is those same people whom you so dislike for being the defenders of decency DID elect and then re-elect President George W Bush. So the notion that he has to whip up support by doing something you consider bad really is a non-starter.

Not by nearly enough votes to pass a Constitutional Amendment, and given how many people would vote for Bush today, this political sop to the intolerant right isn't going anywhere. Tell me I'm wrong.

And exactly what is indecent about a person born gay wanting a faithful, monogamous relationship with someone they love?

Quote by: Saint Vern It is a matter of values, which I understand the left really hates.

Ah, yes... "traditional values". A while back, historically held "traditional values", defended by the Bible, held that slavery was perfectly acceptable. And it wasn't long ago that long held "traditional values" determined that people of color were inferior to whites and could be discriminated against... by law. Or that Jews could be discriminated against... by law. And "traditional values" held that women were inferior to men and could be denied the right to vote, and even as recently as 30 years ago women could be discriminated against ... by law.

But fortunately Americans finally figured out that some of our "traditional values" were making a lie out of the promises of our Constitition. "Traditional values" that allow discrimination against gays are just as foolish, ignorant, cruel and immoral as those other "traditional values" that we've since discarded.

.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: Sonart Not by nearly enough votes to pass a Constitutional Amendment, and given how many people would vote for Bush today, this political sop to the intolerant right is going anywhere.

Makes no diff, as I did not make a forecast about how it will do. You are in such a rush to disagree with me that you do not sweat the details (about minor stuff like what is actually being discussed). And as Bible-believers are the only tolerant people, your far-left talking points fail to impress.

Tell me I'm wrong.

You are wrong. What has that to do with this topic?

And exactly what is indecent about a person born gay

Putting aside your enormous leap in assuming that someone is "born" that way, children are born with spina bifida too, but does that pathology deserve to be defended?

wanting a faithful monogamous relationship with someone they love?

That kind of living tends toward exactly the opposite characteristics.

historically held "traditional values"

...not held by people of God...

, defended by the Bible, held that slavery was perfectly acceptable.

Folks make all sorts of claims, but that does not always mean that the supposed source of those beliefs truly is the source.


:-)

[RickSp]

The biggest con perpetrated by the intolerant rightwing is the idea of "family values". Their "family values" are not my family's values. I don't think that they are values of the vast majority of American families whose values do include tolerance and humanity. The fundies hold no monopoly on "values".

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: RickSp The biggest con perpetrated by the intolerant rightwing is the idea of "family values". Their "family values" are not my family's values. I don't think that they are values of the vast majority of American families whose values do include tolerance and humanity.

Your wanting to kill off or silence all the Bible saints does not constitute "tolerance". The Word of God is the only source of morality or tolerance.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe But they can and they do, and that's what a society does.

A society is a grouping of individuals who live in close proximity for mutually beneficial reasons.


It's utter BS that having that close proximity makes some people think that they have a right to tell other individuals what they can do.


BS!!!


Come and try it!!


I'll show you what I can do!

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Saint Vern And as Bible-believers are the only tolerant people, your far-left talking points fail to impress.

I happen to somewhat agree that TRUE Bible believers are very, very tolerant people. Unfortunately, if you believe in/agree with any of these things, you are not a true Bible believer, as shown by my phrases from the Bible following each one:
- The war on terror ("turn the other cheek")
- The war in Iraq (same one)
- The death penalty ("he who is without sin, cast the first stone")
- Any funding for or support of churches/religion by tax dollars ("render unto Ceasar what is Ceaser's")
- "Illegal" immigration ("as you do unto the least of these, you do unto me")
- Discrimination against gays (many of the above plus many others like "judge not lest ye be judged")

Putting aside your enormous leap in assuming that someone is "born" that way, children are born with spina bifida too, but does that pathology deserve to be defended?

Your analogy makes my point for me. So, I'm assuming you would then support a Constitutional Amendment banning marriage for all people with spina bifida?

That kind of living tends toward exactly the opposite characteristics.

Married people get divorced, have affairs, etc. Being gay does not make you any better or worse in that respect and just because you repeat a stereotype does not make it true. Find some proof to back up your claim that the gay "lifestyle" is (outside of gender) any more harmful than straight people.

By the way "Saint", I'm still waiting for you to refute my other posts. You are the typical inferior fundamentalist debator - you punch and punch and punch, but when the fight goes to the ground against someone with superior skills, you just run away. Go back, read my posts, and address them or concede.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Saint Vern Your wanting to kill off or silence all the Bible saints does not constitute "tolerance". The Word of God is the only source of morality or tolerance.

I have no desire to kill anyone, no matter how delusional. You and your imaginary friend are the one with the swords.