Why the Government wants us to be dumb

[mlingley]

The concept of democracy is a great idea, but recent trends have shown that it is a vulnerable one, too. It seems that all a leader has to do is cut the education and social security budgets and create a large mass of people that are poor and illiterate. Spend all the money you didn't spend for the sake of the people to finance a huge propaganda campaign instead, and once you have brainwashed the gullible 51% with your "new world" views, it doesn't matter at all what the other 49% say.

[Sonart]

Apparently it's working... ... Just look at who's leading the way in the dumbing down of America.

.

[Chris]

Seen that joke and It is funny but some people will actually believe it. Because they don't check it out first.

EDIT: The part about divorce rates is an eye opener though.

[brent6339]

The president may create the budget in this nation, but it is Congress that is responsible for actually cutting education spending. Since Congress is elected by the masses, isn't it safe to assume that we are the ones responsible for the mess in Washington? Our Congress accomplishes nothing! That is the true stamp of democracy, an apathetic public and inept legislative branch. Term limits for Congress would be helpful. Social security has not been altered yet. It is not the president that is the problem, it is special interests that drive this nation. Money used to finance "propaganda" campaigns is not created by cutting education spending, that is not even a relevant statement.

[SteveA]

Congress is elected by the masses...

I heard that the new National ID card coming over the next few years was passed 100-0 in the Senate.

I know that even if I searched day in and day out, I could never find a random group of 100 people that would even come close to unanimously supporting it.

I agree with you entirely, Brent. It's a gimmick. Anytime you heard someone speaking as a representative of "The People", ask yourself if that really means you.

I love our country and the ideals it was based on, but it's spooky when so many people just blindly follow the leader (and then think it's just fine to drag you along for the ride).

Even the national deficit ... I personally almost never borrow money. I hate owing money. But the Gubinator (Schwartzeneggar) here in California convinced the people to temporarily lift a state constitutional restriction against the government here from borrowing long term. Then he managed to also sell the idea that our state government should print up $15 billion in long term bonds. Now they're going to come back and hit my kids with this and tell them they "owe" a debt to society they're going to have to work off (a.k.a. repaying the deficit). I wouldn't ever sign my kids up for something like that, but they take a credit card, stick my families name on it and charge it to the limit. Sure, it's all done in a "democratic" fashion but we never were a democracy. We were a republic with individual rights and it's violations of these constitutional rights (including unenumerated ones) that are dragging the system down. Sure, it goes the way of some majority one day, but karma has a way of coming 'round.

[brent6339]

Interesting points Steve. Your right, we are a republic, not a democracy in the true since of the word (you won't find the word democracy in the Constitution). Do you not feel that hyper-pluralism will be the downfall of this nation? It seems like we have too many interest to support and politicians could care less what any of us have to say.

[SteveA]

Quote by: brent6339 Interesting points Steve. Your right, we are a republic, not a democracy in the true since of the word (you won't find the word democracy in the Constitution). Do you not feel that hyper-pluralism will be the downfall of this nation? It seems like we have too many interest to support and politicians could care less what any of us have to say.

Well, I think it's just a problem with the way the system works. Blaming government for making us stupid, isn't correct. It's the fact that individual politicians aren't paid for making people smart. The system is motivated by votes.

Yes, democracy is the root problem I think but it's more than a political issue, it's a social one. There are too many people on both/all sides that feel either the right or the necessity of being involved in everyone elses life.

The first 5 amendments, a.k.a. The Bill of Rights, were specifically added to explicitly protect against things like this but it doesn't matter because it's just a piece of paper that noone really agreed to, because few people see the problem clearly and realize the benefit to everyone of sticking to a more historical view of what the role of government is.

I believe part of the problem is public education ... in any control system, you need some force that feeds back to stop things from swinging too far over and getting stuck. We don't really have that ... the government has taken upon itself the role of mentor in teaching its own voters. So what are they going to say to our children when they passed a bad law? They'll say it wasn't the law that caused the problem, it was the people, and that another law is needed to fix it. Meanwhile it now has granted itself the ability to control even private media sources (cable TV is an example) not just "public" airways.

If you watch the news, look at what the solution always is to most current issues they bring up ... "We need another law ...". Go back and see if there isn't already a law that made it a problem in the first place. I'd say probably 70% or more of the issues they want new laws to address were issues created because of poor existing ones and instead of fixing or removing those, they just want to add more control.

Russia had its Iron Wall, not to keep people out but to keep people in. North Korea has a killing zone around its country for the same reason. Watch as you see laws trying to consolidate greater control over our interaction with foreign nations. If China's currency does well, it's somehow something bad they're doing to us and instead of looking at why this might be the case and fixing our own currency, we'll just isolate ourselves and ignore the rest of the world, and hide our heads in the sand, wondering why traffic is so bad.

There are many indirect effects of any action the government does. The issue is that it's an institution we granted a monopoly to. The simplest solution that would provide the best long term benefit is just to break up the monopoly and pass federal (and even state level) laws and issue down to a more local level to address. Other than national defense and interstate disputes, there was never an intention of the federal government being even given a power to get involved. And most people would agree ... except when it comes to their own personal pet project, and that's why it keeps going. Everyone needs to drop the chains on everyone else and then we can all go home and enjoy our various American Dreams. "We the People agree" should be changed to "We as individuals differ". It doesn't even matter if some people want to try to form some communist utopia somewhere, as long it's in a voluntary manner between themselves and people aren't forced, by law, against their wishes to participate.

[brent6339]

Steve, I believe that I am on the same wave length as you. No way that the government is responsible for stupidity. Unfortunately, I have to leave, but I would certainly like to take this argument back up on Monday. Later.

[SteveA]

Quote by: brent6339 Steve, I believe that I am on the same wave length as you. No way that the government is responsible for stupidity. Unfortunately, I have to leave, but I would certainly like to take this argument back up on Monday. Later.

My apologies if it sounded like I thought you had said that. I was just referring to the thread title.

Ok, have fun. :)

[Hermes]

Granted government structures have been dumbing down certain populations for decades.

The question is, can those who have dumbed down a segment of the population control that population. Egalitarianism was intended to equalize everyone, in it's stead we have ended up with a mob of uncontrollable peoples who have no allegiance to the Republic or western civilization.

In the end, all peoples act in enlightend self interest, if those people are not properly educated, or indoctrinated at an early age with a nonsensical philosophy, they will act out in an unpredictable manner. The first victims of this mob will be those who created it with the intent of achieving political power. Who has controled education policy for the last 40 years...?

[PatrickHenry]

You guys like John Taylor Gatto? http://johntaylorgatto.com/

We started talking about this last year, but it kinda got off track: Dumbing Down America

[tivodan1116]

Wow, what a load of crap that guy is purveying. I scoured his page for actual evidence to base his claims upon, but not surprisingly it all seems to be based on his own opinions.

This guy's argument (and one of the cental arguments of this thread) is that today's schools are teaching less than schools in, say, 1890. Really? Is that the case? I was the class of 1995 from high school, and looking at many of the things that I studied, I find it hard to believe the class of 1895 learned "more"....

What did the class of 1895 know about.... Computers, Aviation, autos, electricity, physics, calculus, biology, the solar system, meteorology, economics, the telephone, diseases, psychology, etc etc etc...

The argument that schools of 100 years ago were "better" is the same as the argument that today's generation is having a harder time enjoying a comfortable lifestyle because the economy is bad or things are too expensive or whatnot. Whenever people bring that argument to me, my answer is the same:
I am 27 years old. I am married with one young child. My father was in precisely that position at age 27 (in 1979). The reason why he may seemed to have more disposable income? Well... How much did he spend on:
A DVD player and DVD's
3 computers
high speed internet/digital cable
2 cell phones
35" color tv (not to mention 2 other color tvs in the house
a 3000 sqft house
his microwave, smoothtop stove, dishwasher.
Tivo
Satellite radio
a 4 door sedan with leather seats, cd player, 240hp, cruise control, auto
a 2 door coupe with leather, cd changer, 200hp, etc etc.

So every time it seems like something in the past was "better", step back for a second and make sure you're comparing apples to apples. I'm positive if I learned in the education of 1895, i'd be woefully inadequate at getting a job. I also know that if I lived in the lifestyle my father did when he was 27, I'd have a lot more savings and less debt then he did (I mean really, how much does a 1975 VW beetle in salvage condition go for these days?).

[SteveA]

Life has changed over the years but a good measure of education would be to what someones knowledge provides some form of long term growth. People can learn fishing a stream or watching American Idol with a beer but it seems like the important part of education is learning skills that improve the quality of life in the future. Whether it be about technology, agriculture or even music skills the foundations of reading, writing (or typing) and arithmetic still seem to be a large basis of most things, so things like literacy rates and math skills would still apply today (whether it's for reading the internet or keeping a farm journal and calculating harvests).

Here's an article written regarding this subject. I have no idea how accurate it is but it doesn't sound too far off from other things I'd heard:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issue...s_ventura.html

A few excerpts:

"• The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (The New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).

• The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

• One-third of our science teachers and one-half of our math teachers did not major in those subjects. (Quoted on The West Wing, but you can trust it – their researchers are legendary.)

• Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the Earth. Seventeen percent believe the Earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

• "The International Adult Literacy Survey ... found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream
: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78).

• "The European Union leads the U.S. in ... the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).

• "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).

..."

[tivodan1116]

Sounds like you want the government to step in and fix all that.... that's how they did it in Europe, and they pay between 60-80% taxes for it... Still think it sounds good?

And aren't you the big anti-public school one? What kind of schools do you think they have in Europe and Asia?

[SteveA]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Sounds like you want the government to step in and fix all that.... that's how they did it in Europe, and they pay between 60-80% taxes for it... Still think it sounds good? And aren't you the big anti-public school one? What kind of schools do you think they have in Europe and Asia?

I want to see government step "out" to fix these.

The problem is there's nothing truly evolutionary about government. It survives no matter what service it provides. It doesn't matter much to the DMV whether or not you have to stand in an hour long line ... what choice do you have? And you'll come back next year anyway to pay more money for the service. And if the service costs are too high ... can you head down to Billies Fast and Speedy DMV Service? Not really (though at least where I live there has been something along this lines).

Whether or not the students that graduate go belly up after school doesn't have any immediate impact except people wanting to change things - but we all want to change things.

School vouchers would remove the separation of school and state issue and provide competition in education, but honestly I worry about that too because likely the strings attached to the vouchers will end up placing private school effectively under public control. So it's best to just begin biting the bullet and create a voucher system with gradually decreasing funding over time, while lower taxes as well and give people time and warning to make adjustments in planning how many children they can afford to have and educate.

I'm not truly against any involvement by government in schooling. It's just that things need to be returned to a local level. There's really no reason at all for any federal intervention. If people don't like the education system in one state or city they can move elsewhere and this competition would assure parents and taxpayers could "hold feet to the fire" if they don't feel the service is that great.

We've lost a lot of ground internationally and will continue to. It's up to people to decide if they want to see this continue or really want to see changes. The bad part is that there is little in the way of currently available alternatives, unless you happen to be rich enough or have few enough children to be able to pay taxes for public education and still have enough left over for private schooling.

Even assuming there was no public education at all, private schools can run around $6,000/year and would likely decrease some if there were most students available. A K-12 education might be done with a ~$60,000 loan but you don't really even need that. Homeschools can work just fine as well and have had great successes. (I learned almost everything I use for a living from 25 cent used books when I was a kid or the library).

We'd also see parents with greater motivation to assure their children are making good use of those resources. A kid playing hooky or not learning much of anything shouldn't have their education subsidized. I don't want to sounds like the bad guy but it's a waste of money and doesn't teach that person anything other than life is free, no matter your actions. Some time people will just have to say enough is enough and take control of their lives back into their own hands instead of always thinking "If we only had another law ..." it would fix things. There is no magic genie government that creates value without motivation - it can only tell us to do it for ourselves, and even then in an often unintelligeable way (who even knows what's in the millions of pages of laws in this country?). It'll be more difficult for some people than others but we have a problem and the longer we wait to fix it the more damage will be done, and further behind the rest of the world we'll get and the fewer people will experience their various american dreams - we had them at one point. We've just forgotten about them.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Wow, what a load of crap that guy is purveying

You talking about Gatto, tivodan? His thesis is that government factory schools suck. If that wasn't your experience, then good for you. Maybe you lived in an upscale community where parents cared about what their kids were learning. Or maybe you had an unusually great principal. Regardless, do you think that America is teaching kids all the stuff that they need to know? Are you happy with todays' graduation rates from highschool?

Do you think that public education in America is accomplishing its purpose? What is that purpose?

[SteveA]

Let me simplify the idea behind what I posted above:

If education was removed from being addressed federally, those dollars and means of supplying education would remain with the people in various states.

So this frees up education to be addressed privately or states levels to address independently, with the result of competitive forces and greater choices available to people under this system, it's much easier for people to control the costs and qualities - if a state spends too much money and gives poor educational results, people will move elsewhere which pressures the state to learn and adapt.

Decentralize.

Some side effects also are that homeschoolers and people without children aren't unfairly penalized for paying taxes on a service they don't use and parents that would prefer to see the addition of religious views taught in their schools wouldn't feel slighted at being denied representation in the education system either. It's a win/win except that parents would need to plan for educational needs of their children, though the freed up resources would help many people (including businesses who ultimately we need to hire people, regardless of education). Private schools typically cost almost half the public costs and have outperformed public schools generally as well, even with their own taxes subsidizing the competition!! And this also removes the problems people see with ginving large unions and special interests too much control over nation education.

These evolutionary forces don't exist to any large extent under the current system and the pressures are not from individuals but from centralize government currently to, so the pressure of the education system isn't as much to satisfy parents but to satisfy federal funding requirements - the customer has been robbed of their representation via. taxes.

Honestly a motivated child or parent could easily aquire a good (and non-puzzle piece/mass production variety) education from inexpensive materials and field trips. Almost any group of parents in a neighborhood could create a group for the community to share the efforts in teaching their children without the need for any government intervention at all and if people grew up without the mindset that "government will take care of it", the reality that it truly can't without our help would become more obvious.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: mlingley Why the Government wants us to be dumb

An example :
- you rule in a group of 10 men
Do you want 1 or some of those 10 men to be :
- smarter than you ?
- "less smart" than you ?
:-)))

[lsbskins1]

OK, let me begin by saying I believe that most people get the education they seek in public schools. I may be shot by most people posting on this topic but I think education was probably better 100 years ago, but only because 100 years ago more people believed in a well rounded education. What we do not teach people anymore is how to question and how to learn independently. Every focus is on how much money you can make in your field when you leave college. People make more fun of liberal arts degrees than they do of people who don't go to college and that is a shame because people with liberal arts degrees have educations that focus on obtaining the skills of the self-reliant. How many of us had more classes that leaned towards the infamous scan-tron testing than testing that challenged your ability to make a point and then support it. As I see it, the problem is not at what level of government education is funded and controlled. The problem is that we have allowed ourselves to be driven by what is easy to track and quantify. Standardized testing may give you a good measure of how Johnny compares to Billy, but it encourages teachers to teach to the standard and limits the level of our teaching our children how to learn once the "fact giver" is out of the picture. MBAs and the like do not make for well rounded educations. People want a short cut to the money, and they want to be able to point to a chart that says their school system churns out the "best educated kids" and both of those things have nothing to do with whether or not the money came from the local or the federal level. Each funding approach contains it's own evils. Local controll gives us huge disparities in educational levels because despite the fantasies of certain people, tax base determines to a large degree the quality of school your child attends and poor people can't move to rich neighborhoods to follow the quality. Local control gives you segragated schools. Local control gives you local bias and stagnation. Federal control gives you the lowest common denominator education because then the pressures are different. Some combination of the two is probably best, but until people begin to cherish education for the sake of how it enriches you mentally and not economically, the situation will never improve. Or, at least, that is how I see it.

[oranged]

I think public schools teach people to kiss the ass of authority, but don't teach them anything that they need. If someone isn't going to be a math mathmatician, or a rocket scientist they don't need to learn trigonomitry.