Okay... let's assume that you guys are right.

[Mr.Vicchio]

America's past and current actions are to blame for the Terrorist rise. Start back however many millenia you need to pin the blame on the USA, do it.

It's all our fault. Not inso far as we intended to cause hate, it's jsut how it all came down.

Fine.

Now we have Islamic Radicals whose whole goal is to convert all of us, or kill us if need be, to thier version of Islam.

What do we do?

Let's hear it! I had a long read of a couple of Lefty and Hard Right sites that all take the same position, it's basically our fault Terrorist abound, and it's our fault we're fighting this war.

Great, let's not argue that, let's put those keen analytical minds to work, what do we do now?

[Sonart]

Great, let's not argue that, let's put those keen analytical minds to work, what do we do now?

Accept that being a superpower can't solve everything, in fact it creates as many problems as it solves. We have to cowboy up and accept that fanatics are going to be fanatics and there's no one we can attack that will change or stop that, and that we can only put our resources into police work to defend ourselves and our friends... those that we have left.

And mostly, divorce ourselves from the petroleum economy as fast as humanly possible, become the leaders and innovators of a new global energy paradigm, and leave the mideast to wallow in their medieval nightmare until they kill all the Wahabists themselves or rejoice in going back to being Bedouin sheep herders.

.

[belverron]

We should recognize that we can't recreate the security we had before 9/11 because it never really existed. The United States are not invulnerable to attack, and it is pointless to pretend otherwise. We should not break international law by attempting to fix a problem in the Middle East at the expense of our homeland. We should not allow our president to continue to pretend that Iraq was in any way linked to 9/11, that the chain of events following that catastrophe has its logical conclusion there.

[Savant]

Begin a war on Religious Fundamentalism, dropping bombs of education on the masses and holding those who use religion to control people - Bush, Osama, etc. accountable. (A good portion of the war would be fought on American soil.

Create laws to prevent churches, salespeople (TV evangelists), and religious politicions from targeting those who are helpless to defend themselves from them, ie children, drug addicts, republicans, etc.

Create a societly that looks down upon inventing your own reality, and that doesn't tolerate warfare and the use of the supernatural to gain power.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Belverron, Bush never said Iraq was connected to 9/11.

Sorry but he didn't. He DID however, and rightly state, Saddam supported Terrorist, and that was a threat to us. He did not claim Iraq was part of 9/11.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Savant Begin a war on Religious Fundamentalism, dropping bombs of education on the masses and holding those who use religion to control people - Bush, Osama, etc. accountable. (A good portion of the war would be fought on American soil. Create laws to prevent churches, salespeople (TV evangelists), and religious politicions from targeting those who are helpless to defend themselves from them, ie children, drug addicts, republicans, etc. Create a societly that looks down upon inventing your own reality, and that doesn't tolerate warfare and the use of the supernatural to gain power.

Wow, look if you want a place to make insane hate rants...

www.democraticunderground.com

They I do believe, are you're kinda a people.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio America's past and current actions are to blame for the Terrorist rise.

No. America's actions are not to blame for other people's terrorism, it is the same thing. It comes from the same school of thought.

What 'we' do now is put the present and past administrations on trial for their crimes and begin to act like a country that cares about human life and the rule of law.

[G. Adams]

The goals of today should be to secure the hearts and minds of the none-terrorists at the moment. Guerilla warfare, which is what this is, is dependant upon the support of communities. If we can turn the majority in our favour, then the terrorist movement will wither. Fewer suicide bombers, or in the case of sustained guerilla warfare, the logistics is cut off. The US should drastically reduce troop numbers from Iraq and withdraw from Saudi Arabia. The only presence of the US should be humanitarian. The US should stop supporting the Saudi family, stop supporting the dictators of the five 'stans in Central Asia. It should also stop giving military aid to Israel and start getting serious about establishing a seperate and viable Palestine. It does not have to leave Israel unprotected, not that they need any help tbh, they could re-iterate the idea that an attack on Israel is an attack on democracy and the US will step in militarily if necessary. By that I mean external states actually attack, not the Palestinians themselves.

Once the hearts and minds campaign is sucessful, then the US will be able to pick off the stragglers of the militants with the support of the middle east.

What is essential though is that the US, both the government and the public, realise that such a strategy is long term plan and will take time. The US always wants results yesterday, and that has led to quick fixes that keep giving blowback later. Your foreign policy makers have to start thinking about future consequences, rather than vote grabbing and satisfying special interest groups.

[PatrickHenry]

A Department of Peace in the Cabinet would be a good start. How do we wage peace? How about actually doing what the gentle philosophers have recommended for millennia? Seek to help others rather than enrich the already rich. Or like the hippies used to say: Make Love, Not War...

The New Heroes PBS broadcast last month was hosted by Robert Redford and featured a dozen efforts by business oriented, concerned citizens that are doing extraordinary things to empower, heal, educate and comfort the broken and marginalized people of this world. Why expend billions in resources for war and nothing for peace? http://www.pbs.org/opb/thenewheroes/

[bishop]

we definitely don't need any more useless bureaucracy...

how do we go from here... 1. realize that counter-terrorism is best served by using police tactics, rather than nation building and war. 2. like sonart said, divorce ourselves from oil asap. 3. focus primarily on securing our borders rather than our global empire (so-called "allies"). 4. surveillance of radical religious preachers who advocate/justify violence (be they muslim, christian, whatever).

[castille]

Stop the media from broadcasting ANY terrorist attack.

Terrorism is like a spoilt kid - it thrives on media attention. In fact, the GOAL of terrorism is to get attention. Once you stop giving it attention, it fades away.

Of course, in countries where "free media" is more important than the lives of civilians, this won't happen.

[oranged]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio America's past and current actions are to blame for the Terrorist rise. Start back however many millenia you need to pin the blame on the USA, do it. It's all our fault. Not inso far as we intended to cause hate, it's jsut how it all came down. Fine. Now we have Islamic Radicals whose whole goal is to convert all of us, or kill us if need be, to thier version of Islam. What do we do? Let's hear it! I had a long read of a couple of Lefty and Hard Right sites that all take the same position, it's basically our fault Terrorist abound, and it's our fault we're fighting this war. Great, let's not argue that, let's put those keen analytical minds to work, what do we do now?

When you say our do you mean Americans, conservatives, or something else? I don't blame you in particular Mr. Vicchio, unless you voted for many of the criminals in office now. I blame the government, they do want to cause hate in a certain sense, but they use scapegoats, some of which don't exist to blame for terrorism, then they unjustly apprehend these scapegoats (usually muslums) and get national/global respect. On 9-11 many security planes around the pentagon and the world trade center, because planes were scedualed to hit those two places. The plane heading for the pentagon crashed over Pennsilvania, so in a panic the US military launched a missil at the pentagon. The recent bombings in London may be an attept to expand the American Empire in Europe. The rise in terrorism in America is simply because the country is lead be terrorists.

[oranged]

Quote by: castille Stop the media from broadcasting ANY terrorist attack. Terrorism is like a spoilt kid - it thrives on media attention. In fact, the GOAL of terrorism is to get attention. Once you stop giving it attention, it fades away. Of course, in countries where "free media" is more important than the lives of civilians, this won't happen.

The terrorist US governent owns large portions of the media among many other things.

[Chris]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Belverron, Bush never said Iraq was connected to 9/11. Sorry but he didn't. He DID however, and rightly state, Saddam supported Terrorist, and that was a threat to us. He did not claim Iraq was part of 9/11.

Saddam supported who? terrorists against who? Israel? or the US? Yes we all heard he sent money to suicide bomber families.

So WTF do we care if he supported terrorists against Israel?

[castille]

Quote by: oranged The terrorist US governent owns large portions of the media among many other things.

Really? I'm curious to know. What percentage of ownership? Which media? Give me the specifics, not "the government ownz the media".

[righthand]

Quote by: Savant Begin a war on Religious Fundamentalism, dropping bombs of education on the masses and holding those who use religion to control people - Bush, Osama, etc. accountable. (A good portion of the war would be fought on American soil. Create laws to prevent churches, salespeople (TV evangelists), and religious politicians from targeting those who are helpless to defend themselves from them, IE children, drug addicts, republicans, etc. Create a society that looks down upon inventing your own reality, and that doesn't tolerate warfare and the use of the supernatural to gain power.

Your are absolutely correct and don't be bullied by the usual begrudgers. I've been reluctant to join in religious threads, as the outsider is usually turned on by both side, but your ideas are refreshingly new and open. For now I'll only outline some ideas to see how far your ideas go.

Brought up a catholic, I hardly recognize christianity in American utterances. I was raised on the words of Jesus Christ: The ten Beatitudes as against the Ten Commandments; turn the other cheek as against an eye for an eye. In the same way that the US is totally involved in naval gazing as to what the Founding Fathers would do. It is similar with Christianity. You seem to have skipped back past Christ to the old faith. Back past love thy neighbor to KILL thy neighbour.

I'm convinced there is now a THIRD FAITH in America. It has the appearance of christianity but is Old Testament based only so is some Jewish Christian hybrid. All this crap about foretelling the end of the world really gets my goat. After all the false dawns, would you not think people would cope on to being conned. You have been sold a pup by the best con artistes in the business. The notion that the restoration of the jewish state is bound up with the return of Christ is not in the interest of Christians. Again you have been sold a pup.

You won't find any of this crap in 'old' Europe. When is the last time your media wrote anything positive about how 'old' Europe with all it's diversity, and how it solves all the moral questions that tear you apart. That lady in Florida would NEVER have been an issue in 'old' Europe. We've never murdered medical personal from abortion clinics. No death penalty, few guns, REAL democracy, look I could go on and on but most of you have turned off. You are very badly served by your politicians and even worse by your media.

Discussion seems to be, sicking a label on someone and never listening. Your media and discussion seem sound bit only with no content. Now have a poll to decide what kind of bad bastard that I am.

Normally I avoid discussion religion, mainly because I believe that it is private. So why at 5.20am is this happening. One last rant as I've made my excuses. Religion in America is a business, like a business club. There is too much money involved. Contributions to churches should NOT be allowed against personal taxes. If there was real separation of church and state they the state would not all contributions to be tax deductible. Now that I've solved all your problem I'll go to bed. Good night.

.

[rmnunez]

Vic, my impression is that, although the Islamic fundamentalist fanatics may ultimately seek the forcible conversion of infidels, the critical left disputes this is their aim. It is claimed Al Qaeda and like-mindeds really are motivated by a series of circumstances which can be traced back to nefarious US influence and involvement. Under this perspective, once the inequities resulting from US involvement or influence are banished, fanatic Islamic fundamentalists will have no reason to fight and will peacefully go about their existence.

This is not my way of seeing things, but we have to recognize there is a substantial community out there which genuinely believes if only the US stopped supporting Israel, withdrew from Iraq and Afghanistan, left Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where they have political influence or military deployments, if they stopped supporting all those tyrants repressingly ruling disenfranchised Muslims everywhere -then there would be lasting peace.

As I see it, there is a strong religious element in fundamentalist motivation. I think this religious element is more substantial than any political aims which may be derived. All fundamentalisms are exclusivist and intolerant of others, the Islamic ones promoting terrorism more so than any other religious fundamentalism observed. Thus it seems to me Islamic fundamentalists need to be erradicated, this is the only way to remove the threat of Islamic fundamentalist inspired terrorism.

[Milton Bradley]

To the original question.


The truth is, we had no enemies in the Middle East while our government operated under the constitutional limitations placed upon it.


When we influence policy in sovereign nations, or prevent people from exercising their self determination, we run the risk of being targeted as their enemies. Rightly so. Its just that simple.


Much like crime is supposed to be treated in this country, the government is only empowered to act after the crime is commited. Pre-emptive warfare, or policing, is a violation of the signed oath of any elected political representative. The proverbial "first blood" that was drawn, was drawn by our elected officials interfering in the affairs of others, and that why the drafters of the constitution placed those limitations in the document. They used the examples history provided to attemp to limit the abuse their government could inflict on people.


To those who would say "well, now we have made enemies, what do we do about them?", I say this.


Announce our plans to come to terms with our law breaking elected officials, remove them from office, and punnish them for their crimes. Make a commitment to non-intervention, and prevent "humanitarian aid" from becoming Egytian bombs, and Isreali bullets.


Kick the United Nations from our soil, and remove funding. They, and their policy writers (Council on Foreign Relations) have created the slanted playing field that every administration since 1948 has backed. (That fact alone should point to conspiracy)

[Osborn F Enready]

Great answer Milton. I agree.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: |Chris| Saddam supported who? terrorists against who? Israel? or the US? Yes we all heard he sent money to suicide bomber families. So WTF do we care if he supported terrorists against Israel?

Well first off we happen to be friends with Isreal. Perhaps you don't care when other people have suicide bombers kill thier childrena nd families, but msot of us DO.

Secondly, that wasn't his only funding, jsut the most public.

And finally, how big of a stretch would it be to fund suicide bombers that say... took out a subway in NYC?