2008 Presidential Election

[Osborn F Enready]

I'll vote, just not for evil, which means third party Libs.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I'll vote, just not for evil, which means third party Libs.

I would vote Libertarian too, but only if they poll somewhere close to 33%. If they poll at less than 20 percent I will definitely vote Dem.
I refuse to disrespect my vote by throwing it away.

If it looks like I cant have who I want, I will use my vote to destroy who I hate.

Kerry was only better than Lieberman in the primary. Second to the worse. If only the DNC had put one of the better men (or women) in front, it would have been a winner. Good God! Look WHO he had to beat!! A puppet!

I wouldnt vote Rep even if Ron Paul ran, the corruption and cronyism runs way too deep in the party.

Thom Hartmann just brought up a good point. Democracy is natural. We can see it in schools of fish;
If 51% of a school of fish moves a 1/4 inch to the left, all of them move 1/4 inch to the left.
If 51% of a ball of gnats moves a 1/4 inch to the left, all of them move 1/4 inch to the left.
If 51% of an antelope herd moves a 1/4 inch to the left, all of them move 1/4 inch to the left.
If 51% of a bird flock moves a 1/4 inch to the left, all of them move 1/4 inch to the left.

Smaller factions can splinter off, but there is better chance of survival in greater numbers, and the smaller factions cant expect to rule over or control the larger.

[zynner]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I would vote Libertarian too, but only if they poll somewhere close to 33%. If they poll at less than 20 percent I will definitely vote Dem. I refuse to disrespect my vote by throwing it away. If it looks like I cant have who I want, I will use my vote to destroy who I hate.

In that case, you will be actively supporting those who will work against you by giving you what you do not want, like war in Iraq and the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act.

Now, that is really disrespecting yourself and throwing your vote away.

~ zynner

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: zynner In that case, you will be actively supporting those who will work against you by giving you what you do not want, like war in Iraq and the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act. Now, that is really disrespecting yourself and throwing your vote away. ~ zynner

The Dems didnt initiate those policies. They just didnt have any power to fight them.

[zynner]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel The Dems didnt initiate those policies. They just didnt have any power to fight them.

You want to believe that, but you know it ain't true.

The Reps and Dems are on the same team -- and not on yours.

~ zynner

[gr8fuldaniel]

I didnt hear the Libertarians on the senate floor arguing against the Iraq war or the Patriot act

[Osborn F Enready]

Who would that be Daniel?

What Libs are on the Senate floor?

Brainwashed sheeple keep pulling a red or blue lever in the voting booth, so you won't see that until you can stop your urge to keep the same two evils in power.

Break the monopoly. OPEN THE MARKET for third parties, there may be one who represents your ideals more. USE your friendship in the democratic party to sway more of those people away from the bi-partisan hell, and to an answer.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Thom Hartmann just brought up a good point. Democracy is natural. We can see it in schools of fish; If 51% of a school of fish moves a 1/4 inch to the left, all of them move 1/4 inch to the left. Smaller factions can splinter off, but there is better chance of survival in greater numbers, and the smaller factions cant expect to rule over or control the larger.

Smashing analogy -- we humans are just a mindless school of fish?

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel The Dems didnt initiate those policies. They just didnt have any power to fight them.

Bullshit, they were passed near-unamimously.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I didnt hear the Libertarians on the senate floor arguing against the Iraq war or the Patriot act

Well, seeing as there's only one in there now, Ron Paul, that's not too surprising. What's your point?

[zynner]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Well, seeing as there's only one in there now, Ron Paul, that's not too surprising.

And he has had plenty to say about the subject.

~ zynner

[zynner]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I didnt hear the Libertarians on the senate floor arguing against the Iraq war or the Patriot act

You also didn't seem them vote in favor, like the Dems who acted against what you want.

~ zynner

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Me I would vote Libertarian too, but only if they poll somewhere close to 33%.

I should have said "I might vote Libertarian". Rather than "I would". I still have unanswered questions about Libertarians. It is untested, but it doesnt satisfy the societal need to care for our most vulnerable. It appears to be a primitive system of big dogs eating small dogs. Capitolism is not democracy. And unchecked capitolism is fascism.

Quote by: Osborn Brainwashed sheeple keep pulling a red or blue lever in the voting booth, so you won't see that until you can stop your urge to keep the same two evils in power.

As long as my vote can mean the difference between fascism and less fascism, I will not vote for MORE fascism by the default of voting for a false utopia that has absolutely no chance of winning.

Libertarians are not organized enough to tell us exactly where the lines will be drawn.

How bad does it have to get before you will vote in your own best interests?

We are becoming the Soviet Union by leaps and bounds.

Yet you refuse to cast your vote where it could be put to real change.

I have a Pizza Oven. Its professional grade. It has an high end of 750 degrees and a "hard-wired" timer that turns it on and off. Mirror finished chrome steel box. I have had it for years. It would make a better president than George W Bush. But I am not going to vote for it. It is smarter than bush. More reliable and it does its job without complaning "Its hot work". But I will not waste my vote on it because it cannot win.

There are plenty of traitors in the Dem party. I was just reading about the CAFTA 15 last night. But something I read this morning scares the hell out of me. Doug Thompson wrote an article yesterday(Monday), about the war on journalism He wrote a politically correct follow-up today: The Rant Telling the Approved Story .

The Doug Thompson story really belongs in the Characteristics of a Police State thread. But it it brings my point home.
I will not vote for my Pizza Oven (which has never been beat up by a pretzel, nor fallen off a bike) and I will not vote Libertarian which has no blots on its record because it has never been tested. Unless you count anarchy. Which is almost sure to happen in the first few months when cops get tired of working for free.

[zynner]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel it doesnt satisfy the societal need to care for our most vulnerable.

Are you aware of some Libertarian Party proposals?

We know that Social Security is a ponzi scheme and is effectively bankrupt (no money exists in the so-called "trust fund.")

One libertarian proposal is for the government to buy private insurance annuities, in lieu of Social Security, for those who are in or near retirement. Younger people could do the same for themselves.

Insurance companies actually honor their contracts. The government does not (of course, it never was a contract).

Retired people would be guaranteed their income with something real. Others would have much, much more in retirement.

Does that seem like a bunch who wants to let people die in the streets?

.As long as my vote can mean the difference between fascism and less fascism,

Voting for Mussolini is a vote FOR Mussolini, not against Hitler.

How bad does it have to get before you will vote in your own best interests?

That's what I'm asking you.

Yet you refuse to cast your vote where it could be put to real change.

War in Iraq? The P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act?

That is what you are voting for if you vote for the Dems. They will think you support everything they've done. They won't ask you why you voted for them. They will just assume you agree with what they're doing.

I have a Pizza Oven. Its professional grade. It has an high end of 750 degrees and a "hard-wired" timer that turns it on and off. Mirror finished chrome steel box. I have had it for years. It would make a better president than George W Bush. But I am not going to vote for it. It is smarter than bush. More reliable and it does its job without complaning "Its hot work". But I will not waste my vote on it because it cannot win.

But, you will vote for the arsonist, who will burn down your home, in hopes that he will "only" cook your pizza.

There are plenty of traitors in the Dem party.

So, when are you going to teach them a lesson? Never?

You are under the illusion that voting for Dems will get you what you want. Maybe voting for Libs will not get you what you want, but at least there can be no mistake that you do NOT support what the Reps or Dems are doing. It will send a message. Voting for Dems will get you what the Dems are giving you.

Doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different result... well, you know the deal...

~ zynner

[lsbskins1]

zynner-

If I was a Jew, living in Bizzaro world and Benito was running against Adolf, and I wanted to survive to vote in another election, you can bet your ass I would vote for the bald guy. Especially if I knew that ALL the really hard core Jew haters would be voting for Hitler and they were 49% of the population and the remaining votes would either oppose Hitler together or split between 2 guys, both of which were better than Hitler, but neither of which could win if one side or the other got more than 2 % of the vote. Play the game by the real rules and not by the ones you wish were written on the back of the box.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Thom Hartmann just brought up a good point. Democracy is natural. We can see it in schools of fish; If 51% of a school of fish moves a 1/4 inch to the left, all of them move 1/4 inch to the left. Smaller factions can splinter off, but there is better chance of survival in greater numbers, and the smaller factions cant expect to rule over or control the larger. Smashing analogy -- we humans are just a mindless school of fish?

So you believe they are mindless because? Why? Because they dont speak American English? Your arrogance is showing. Every molecule of everything has intelligence. Just because it doesnt jump through the same hoops as you, doesnt make them "dumber" than you. What if everthing is exactly as smart as it is supposed to be?
If only on this current plateau.

You may not have noticed our herding and flocking is a bit looser, but we to tend to connect with our own kind. We have social contracts that bind us and make it almost illegal to live alone in the wild, alone. Consumer nations are composed of flocks. You only think you are seperate and alone. Try being seperate using nothing produced by another human.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Quote by: gr8fuldaniel The Dems didnt initiate those policies. They just didnt have any power to fight them. Bullshit, they were passed near-unamimously.

The Iraq war: The dems were provided fixed/rigged intelligence. John Conyers said "If you were given the intelligence that we were given, you would have voted for the war too (paraphrase. I am looking for exact quote)" They did not have subpoena powers (being the minority. They had to use what they were given, and just blindly trust that it was true)
The Patriot Act: Was signed without being read the first time, this last week it was signed by Dems only after some revisions were made (Not good enough for me, either). When the act was 1st passed it was under threat of death. The only targets for anthrax letters , were those who spoke out against the act. Also they had no subpoena powers and could not assemble to debate the act due to the bullshit expediency required. They didnt have time to physically read the damned thing. The urgency of 911 (dubious imho) demanded swift passage. I dont like defending them. They should have stood up for what is right.
But the Anthrax attacks on Daschle and Leahy,

DID influence the voting on the Patriot Act, equal to the Reichstag Fire influencing the vote for the 1933 Enabling Law in Nazi Germany.
From Wiki;

As of 2006, the anthrax investigation seems to have gone cold. Authorities have traveled to four different continents, interviewed more than 8,000 individuals and have issued over 5,000 subpoenas. The number of FBI agents assigned to the case is now 21, ten fewer than a year ago. The number of postal inspectors investigating the case is nine.

(Note: I wonder if they thought about looking inward rather than outward?)
These were the "Offer that couldnt be refused", Like the severed horses head in the "The Godfather". The first letters were sent Sent Sept 18th. Exactly one week after 911.

Two additional anthrax letters, bearing the same Trenton postmark, were dated October 9, three weeks after the first mailing. The letters were addressed to two Democratic Senators, Tom Daschle of South Dakota and Patrick Leahy of Vermont. More potent than the first anthrax letters, the material in the Senate letters was a highly refined dry powder consisting of approximately one gram of nearly pure spores. Some reports described the material in the Senate letters as "weaponized" or "weapons grade" anthrax. The Daschle letter was opened by an aide on October 15, and the government mail service was shut down. The unopened Leahy letter was discovered in an impounded mail bag on November 16. The Leahy letter had been misdirected to the State Department mail annex in Sterling, Virginia, due to a misread Zip code; a postal worker there, David Hose, contracted inhalation anthrax

The Anthrax attacks were against another enemy of the bush administration. The Media. The Media was not embedded yet. Could not be trusted to tell ..... correction, to catapult the propaganda. The media was sent a clear message in Oct of 01. They have been getting the same message over there, instead of over here. Journalists are being murdered at an unprecidented rate. But thats OK, just make sure it continues to descend into complete tyranny by effectively voting for Bush, by voting for a Pizza Oven that cant win.

Splinter groups are cute, but we are talking Mass Murder here.
Grow a brain, rise up as one against the Tyrant we know.

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I didnt hear the Libertarians on the senate floor arguing against the Iraq war or the Patriot act Well, seeing as there's only one in there now, Ron Paul, that's not too surprising. What's your point?

Ron Paul has an (R) after his name. And hes a Libertarian? So Are Libertarians more Reich than Left? Now, I doubt I will ever be a Libertarian.

Lunch time!
I will respond to zynner in a while

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: zynner We know that Social Security is a ponzi scheme and is effectively bankrupt (no money exists in the so-called "trust fund.")

The money was there before bu$h stole it, along with the $7 Trillion surplus in our treasury.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Correction in my last post, I was in a rush, sorry:

The Surplus was $5 Trillion, the debt, is now $7 trillion

[bugsbunny04]

Quote by: Prometheus Here's what I want to see: Condy Rice |vs| Hillary Clinton Can you think of anything more entertaining than that? I can afford to be merely entertained by the elections since Utah will always vote rep, so my vote is totally meaningless.

Haha.

Id pay real money to see that.

[zynner]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Ron Paul has an (R) after his name. And hes a Libertarian?

Ron Paul had been a Republican in Congress, got fed up, joined the Libertarian Party and ran for president for the Libertarian Party. Then, he rejoined the Republican Party and went back to Congress. The Republicans call him "Dr. No" because he's a medical doctor and because he refuses to vote lock-step with the Republicans when they are trashing the Constitution.

He's kind of a rino -- Republican in Name Only. The Reps would get rid of him if they could beat him in the primary, but his Texas district won't vote for anyone else.

So, yeah, he's basically a libertarian, despite the "R" -- and definately not a neo-con. Just like Sanders of Vermont is a communist, despite the "I" next to his name.

The Surplus was $5 Trillion, the debt, is now $7 trillion

There was never a $5 trillion surplus. You are confusing the national debt ($8 trillion) with the annual deficit or surplus (which was an illusion due to temporary Social Security revenue increase).

~ zynner