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Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 07:25 am

I was trying to think of a way to make a suicide bomber think...probably an inpossible task about what he or his family will lose if he goes ahead with an attack.
Also of a way to try to make the muslim community self police itself.
I came up with the thought that if a suicide bomber attacks the public. His entire immediate and extended family will be shipped out of the country and back to their country of ethnic origin.
What do you think?

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 07:34 am

Collective punishment. Doesn't workk in Palestine, can't imagine it'll work here.

Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 07:47 am

Maybe not...each situation is different..what doesn't work in Pakistan might work here.....but its a starting point. Besides the idea is not really to ship them out ( although we may have to make a few examples) but to force them into intensively self policing through the threat of shipping them out.

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 08:08 am

Trouble is, as I understand it, at least one of the bombers had been banned from several mosques for his radicalism....I'm not sure 'self-policing' is the issue, but rather better communication with the police.

Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 08:12 am

Did you see they shot a guy this morning? I agree with what you are saying in principle but the fact is that more needs to happen. The mosques can indentify who these radicals are quite easily as they tend to preach islam and try to recruit here. the mosques should also be reposnsible for reporting them to the police so they can be tagged with an electronic gps tag in someway. If they are a potential threat to society then they should be treated as such.

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 08:30 am

1st priority in 'self-policing' is dealing with the radicalisation of the youth. 'Islamic leaders' in the UK do not have the trust or the faith of the younger generation - as has been demonstrated in a fair few statements carried by the press. Being 100% honest, I don't see how you can build that trust by publically encouraging imans to report potential radicals to the authorities - only further radicalises people. Having a 'thought police' is not the way forward.

Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 08:35 am

So why do they not have the trust and faith of the younger generation? Because they preach peace?
If all the younger generation is interested in is violence and radicalism then maybe we need to give the mosque leaders more actual power to do something about it. The question is really how to give them that power so that it will be effective.
I am not typically a hardliner however when it comes to being attacked on our own turf we need to go the full way towards minimising casualties.

Maybe set up some kind of muslim police force with the full powers of police covertly within the muslim population.

Trotsky · Jul 22, 2005, 08:55 am

That creates more bombers........jesus I thought you English would have learned something from the centuries of insurgency and terror attacks from the Irish. Incidents like internment etc just created more IRA bombers, what you suggest will just create more suicide bombers...or are you a BNP activist in disguise...is this ye're new anti-immigration policy....one family member to do an terror act....send his entire family back home!

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 09:40 am

*grins* Well put, Trotsky - exactly what I was trying to say.

Trotsky · Jul 22, 2005, 09:48 am

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

*grins* Well put, Trotsky - exactly what I was trying to say.

I have moments of clarity every-now-and-then!

I was only kidding btw Samildanach, just a bit of harmless ribbing.....don't get insulted!

Nono · Jul 22, 2005, 09:51 am

Anyway, the known bombers were British nationals, right? So presumably their families are too. You can't expel your own citizens. If you do, there goes the rule of law, which I thought we all cherished.

So you're in a pretty pickle with these disaffected youngsters, as are the French with theirs. To some extent this is blowback from Empire.

Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 10:13 am

I know the old do nothing is A solution but there must be others. what do these people care about
passionately? What are they scared of? There must be some levers that can be used.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/309/6953/521

How about automatic cremation for any terrorist....or maybe if hes still alive he can become a living organ donor ( after all the ultimate irony of failure for a terrorist would be in failing in his mission he becomes someone who helps to sustain the lives of others) or used for medical risky medical experimentation...human brain interface experiments and whatnot...hell I would rather save a monkey, at least monkeys don't go around bombing people.
After all if he doesn't respect and value his own life or the lives of others then why the hell should we respect HIS life...he doesn't seem to want it. I agree with what the police did this morning, they held him down and shot him five times. Just what he deserved. No Mercy.

Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 10:45 am

Quote:

Anyway, the known bombers were British nationals, right? So presumably their families are too. You can't expel your own citizens. If you do, there goes the rule of law, which I thought we all cherished.

Yes they were British nationals however they are not obeying British law. Partly this surely has to come from upbringing and culture. I don't see black or white people running around with bombs on their backs so maybe someone needs to examine why this extremist culture is allowed to exist and what propagates it.

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 12:21 pm

Quote:

I don't see black or white people running around with bombs on their backs

Take a look at the pic:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/b...ts/4707277.stm

Is this man your typical Arab or Indian subcontinent Muslim???

Samildanach · Jul 22, 2005, 12:54 pm

Giving my best impartial judgement....I dont actually think he is either....if anything I would say he has at least one African parent from the genetics of his facial structure. He definitely doesnt look like you typical Indian or Arab to me.

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 12:58 pm

Plus, looking at the images of the four men wanted for yesterday's attempts, once more, they're not all your common or garden Arab/Pakistani:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706421.stm

So. Do we punish the families for the sins of their sons?

Cephus · Jul 22, 2005, 04:13 pm

You can't change their minds no matter what you do. Most suicide bombers cut off all contact with their families when they enter the training camps so deporting or killing their families won't make a bit of difference, it'll just make more martyrs. Besides, they believe that if they are killed for the cause, they go straight to paradise anyhow, so killing them is pointless.

You're not going to be able to reason with any of them either, nor are they likely to run out of suicide bombers any time soon. There are thousands of volunteers just waiting the opportunity to strap on a bomb and die for their faith.

Chalk · Jul 22, 2005, 06:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

So. Do we punish the families for the sins of their sons?

Not at all. It's a stupid idea and it will promote more tensions between cultures, a 'them and us' situation which is just going to make things worse, since suicide bomber = asian bloke in lots of people's minds..

**Matt W** · Jul 22, 2005, 09:05 pm

That's exactly where I'm coming from. Not a good place to be, is it?

crossfire · Jul 23, 2005, 03:51 am

But the police did miss a trick. After the bombings they should have immediatey arrested the parents of the bombers who still lived at home. A three month investigation I am sure would have cleared them but it would have sent a strong message to potential bombers - "you do that and your parents go to prison"

Jul 22, 2005, 07:25 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Ship them out! I was trying to think of a way to make a suicide bomber think...probably an inpossible task about what he or his family will lose if he goes ahead with an attack. Also of a way to try to make the muslim community self police itself. I came up with the thought that if a suicide bomber attacks the public. His entire immediate and extended family will be shipped out of the country and back to their country of ethnic origin. What do you think? I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Jul 22, 2005, 07:34 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	Collective punishment. Doesn't workk in Palestine, can't imagine it'll work here. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 22, 2005, 07:47 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Maybe not...each situation is different..what doesn't work in Pakistan might work here.....but its a starting point. Besides the idea is not really to ship them out ( although we may have to make a few examples) but to force them into intensively self policing through the threat of shipping them out. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway) Last edited by Samildanach; Jul 22, 2005 at 07:50 am.

Jul 22, 2005, 08:08 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	Trouble is, as I understand it, at least one of the bombers had been banned from several mosques for his radicalism....I'm not sure 'self-policing' is the issue, but rather better communication with the police. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 22, 2005, 08:12 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Did you see they shot a guy this morning? I agree with what you are saying in principle but the fact is that more needs to happen. The mosques can indentify who these radicals are quite easily as they tend to preach islam and try to recruit here. the mosques should also be reposnsible for reporting them to the police so they can be tagged with an electronic gps tag in someway. If they are a potential threat to society then they should be treated as such. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway) Last edited by Samildanach; Jul 22, 2005 at 08:15 am.

Jul 22, 2005, 08:30 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	1st priority in 'self-policing' is dealing with the radicalisation of the youth. 'Islamic leaders' in the UK do not have the trust or the faith of the younger generation - as has been demonstrated in a fair few statements carried by the press. Being 100% honest, I don't see how you can build that trust by publically encouraging imans to report potential radicals to the authorities - only further radicalises people. Having a 'thought police' is not the way forward. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 22, 2005, 08:35 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	So why do they not have the trust and faith of the younger generation? Because they preach peace? If all the younger generation is interested in is violence and radicalism then maybe we need to give the mosque leaders more actual power to do something about it. The question is really how to give them that power so that it will be effective. I am not typically a hardliner however when it comes to being attacked on our own turf we need to go the full way towards minimising casualties. Maybe set up some kind of muslim police force with the full powers of police covertly within the muslim population. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway) Last edited by Samildanach; Jul 22, 2005 at 08:42 am.

Jul 22, 2005, 08:55 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Trotsky Stront vir breins Location: Buckinghamshire, UK Posts: 542	That creates more bombers........jesus I thought you English would have learned something from the centuries of insurgency and terror attacks from the Irish. Incidents like internment etc just created more IRA bombers, what you suggest will just create more suicide bombers...or are you a BNP activist in disguise...is this ye're new anti-immigration policy....one family member to do an terror act....send his entire family back home! " UKIP -- the United Kingdom Independence Party, the golf club version of the BNP, British National Party. " Middle East.. "The vile leading the stupid to kill the decent in the name of the holy."

Jul 22, 2005, 09:40 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	grins Well put, Trotsky - exactly what I was trying to say. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 22, 2005, 09:51 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 7,444	Anyway, the known bombers were British nationals, right? So presumably their families are too. You can't expel your own citizens. If you do, there goes the rule of law, which I thought we all cherished. So you're in a pretty pickle with these disaffected youngsters, as are the French with theirs. To some extent this is blowback from Empire. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 22, 2005, 10:13 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	I know the old do nothing is A solution but there must be others. what do these people care about passionately? What are they scared of? There must be some levers that can be used. http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/309/6953/521 How about automatic cremation for any terrorist....or maybe if hes still alive he can become a living organ donor ( after all the ultimate irony of failure for a terrorist would be in failing in his mission he becomes someone who helps to sustain the lives of others) or used for medical risky medical experimentation...human brain interface experiments and whatnot...hell I would rather save a monkey, at least monkeys don't go around bombing people. After all if he doesn't respect and value his own life or the lives of others then why the hell should we respect HIS life...he doesn't seem to want it. I agree with what the police did this morning, they held him down and shot him five times. Just what he deserved. No Mercy. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway) Last edited by Samildanach; Jul 22, 2005 at 10:54 am.

Jul 22, 2005, 12:54 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Giving my best impartial judgement....I dont actually think he is either....if anything I would say he has at least one African parent from the genetics of his facial structure. He definitely doesnt look like you typical Indian or Arab to me. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Jul 22, 2005, 12:58 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	Plus, looking at the images of the four men wanted for yesterday's attempts, once more, they're not all your common or garden Arab/Pakistani: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706421.stm So. Do we punish the families for the sins of their sons? I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 22, 2005, 04:13 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Cephus Hot Lava Location: Redlands, CA Posts: 2,347	You can't change their minds no matter what you do. Most suicide bombers cut off all contact with their families when they enter the training camps so deporting or killing their families won't make a bit of difference, it'll just make more martyrs. Besides, they believe that if they are killed for the cause, they go straight to paradise anyhow, so killing them is pointless. You're not going to be able to reason with any of them either, nor are they likely to run out of suicide bombers any time soon. There are thousands of volunteers just waiting the opportunity to strap on a bomb and die for their faith. Jesus loves me? No thanks, I don't swing that way. Blog Me! http://BitchSpot.JadeDragonOnline.com

Jul 22, 2005, 09:05 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	That's exactly where I'm coming from. Not a good place to be, is it? I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 23, 2005, 03:51 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
crossfire Sedimentary Rock Posts: 19	But the police did miss a trick. After the bombings they should have immediatey arrested the parents of the bombers who still lived at home. A three month investigation I am sure would have cleared them but it would have sent a strong message to potential bombers - "you do that and your parents go to prison"