Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

castille · Feb 19, 2004, 09:46 am

Are you are proud:

-Communist
-Socialist
-Anarchist
-Fascist
-Anarcho-communo-libertario-socialist
-Rebelling against society

If so, then welcome to the world of Sheep! Baaa!

You get these excellent benefits:
-The ability to blindly follow political rules set by old men such as "Marx", "Adams", "Hitler", "Stalin". Most of these men probably laugh at you and wonder why you follow their ancient values which existed in a time when people thought you could get hairy palms from wanking!
-The ability to agree with a bunch of people who also agree. "Bush sucks" "I agree" "Me too" "Me three".
-Free conscience! Unless you are an active terrorist, politician, or secret police officer, you are able to participate in rallies, protests, and various cult meetings without having to actually do anything! Protest against globalisation, then get a Big Mac for breakfast! Who cares about globalisation, you just have to hate it! Screw the poor, its your cause thats important!
-Hold noble values. Like the Crusaders, you get to do anything in the name of Communism, Fascism, rebelling, etc. For example, if you don't like McDonalds, then you can burn the store down and kill the employees! "In the name of the cause!"

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 10:04 am

You forgot to add american imperialism ....

castille · Feb 19, 2004, 10:04 am

Anyone who claims to be an imperialist these days is actually quite unique.

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 10:13 am

But if you blindly support a governement which act this way, it is quite sheeple too.

Feb 19, 2004, 10:13 am

That you happen to fit into some category does not tell anything at all about the motivations, actions, or nature of beliefs of the individual.

Your assertions assume that one merely blindly follows some leader, but often people come to some position through research, critical thought, and experience. All of these are actions of an independent thinking individual, not a sheep.

I have friends who claim that communism is too conservative and though I disagree with their beliefs, no one can honestly call them sheep for they came to their beliefs through rigorous thought and specific reasoning. They did not simply and blindly follow any shepherd.

Bayou · Feb 19, 2004, 10:13 am

My how unusual to extend the hate so far to the right castille, I mean cripes, theirs anarchists who consider themselves capitalists here.
Thats almost criticising capitalists to.

I mean you must have an ideal to, that is why we come here, to express and excercise our ideals. Ideally I would prefer a communist system, but I know that if I am to truly help the people I love right now- I need a social democratic philosophy in control of canada looking out for everyones interest, not just the proletariate.
That means playing by the rules of the economic system currently in place.
I have actually never really hated your out look(it seemed balanced and realistic), just that cynicism that crops up in your concepts of ideals.

SVMc · Feb 19, 2004, 10:21 am

There's thinkers and followers in every part of the spectrum. Since you so conveniently excluded moderate, traditional, conservative and right wing view points as having sheeple it makes me wonder how uncitical you are of your own viewpoint. Are you advocating that being a blue sheep is okay but being a red one is not?

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 10:27 am

It's a common human behavior to try to generalize a subject when they can't (or don't wan't to) understand all the nuance that this subject have.It give a feeling of security when confronted to new beliefs.

Disinvented · Feb 19, 2004, 11:30 am

Everyone fits into some category. To criticize someone for it is moronic and arrogant. Even shepherds are sheep to shepherd-dom. If you don't think that you're a sheep and like to condescend to those whom you think are, then you're just like all those other I-hate-sheeple types that are so different, in exactly the same way.

Personally, I find kindred in a lot of what Nietzsche had to say, as well as Epicurus, Hobbes, Sartre, and others. I didn't agree with all they had to say, I don't consider any of them to be great men (there are no great people, only more effective people). However, I take no shame in, for the sake of generalization, referring to myself as a skeptic, an atheist, an existentialist, a nihilist, a non-party libertarian, an anarchist, a zeroist, or whatever macro-category my beliefs may touch on. I don't strictly adhere to any of these categories, with the exception of being a devout atheist, and wouldn't use any such generalization to definitively proclaim who I am. However, for the sake of easy communication, I've been known to cut down on explanations and refer to myself as many things.

I don't see the problem to be that people claim to be one thing or another, but that most people do it for the sake of belonging to something greater, something that gives their lives purpose. It's the reason that people join gangs, political parties, and religions.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 19, 2004, 11:41 am

Gee, and I was hoping this forum would actually spur real thought into politics and society. Instead we get wild rhetoric and extreme generalizations over and over and over and over; if you choose to continue along this path of glossing over much of everything, it is you who is the sheep, Disinvented.

Impenitent · Feb 19, 2004, 12:39 pm

the cult phenomena is interesting

Xicano82 · Feb 19, 2004, 02:51 pm

Castille are you a proud democrat or republican? Do you actually think we live in a democracy and think your opinion matters to those in power? You probably do, but you just by all the crap they tell you to on TV thinking that freedom is such a great thing. They'll tell you to jump, and you say "how high". Instead of questioning politicians and taking those who criticze government in a serious debate, you say "BAAAAH". Hell, they're laughing at you right now!!! You probably never stopped to think that some of us have gone through experiences that have made us hate this government and realize the crock of bull sh*t they feed us everyday. It maybe easy for you to criticize radical thought, since your opinion is defended and manufactured for you in the media everyday. I don't by into the manufuctured opinions that are nicely set up for you, I build my opinions around my experience here in this country because I can not relate to millionaire politicians or corporate news outlets, cuz I don't think they're ever had to worry about what they were going to eat the next day, I have. So it is okay for you to have your opinions and I'll gladly debate with anyone. Just now what the f*ck you're talking about before you tell my why I think the way I do, K? =P

Impenitent · Feb 19, 2004, 04:42 pm

it is funny how americans think everyone sees the world through american eyes...

Feb 19, 2004, 05:48 pm

No, it's funny how foriegners feel they know how and what Americans think, like there is something wrong with Americans thinking like Americans, no matter what "that" means.

Paavo · Feb 19, 2004, 07:15 pm

From my own personal experience:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
it is funny how americans think everyone sees the world through american eyes... <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yup,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
No, it's funny how foriegners feel they know how and what Americans think, like there is something wrong with Americans thinking like Americans, no matter what "that" means.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yup. I used to think that, I try not to anymore. Forums like this are great when trying to grasp how different kindof people think.

james? · Feb 19, 2004, 07:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Paavo,)
Yup. I used to think that, I try not to anymore. Forums like this are great when trying to grasp how different kindof people think.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Definitely. I love trying to grasp others' perspectives, and I really consider it one of my strongpoints. A debate forum like this is a perfect way to reduce my ignorance.

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 07:41 pm

Well, in any population, it would be absurd to say that evryone think in the same way. There is idiots everywhere, that's a universal thing. In every nation there is also sheeple, who think what thier TV said to them, and try no to think too much. It is also universal. It is common people associate the sheeple who constitute a nation as the nation. This generalization is not appropriate , sure, but at the same time I think everyone here is enough intelligent to make the distinction between the textual and logical meaning of using those generalization . As you can say libertarian think that, socialist do this, etc... while it is not everyone who declare themselves libertarian who follow the same ideas. We do not stop us from using those genralisation too. Why?

Catch 22 · Feb 20, 2004, 04:10 pm

wow broad generalizations followed by strategic deletion of viewpoints you support we're really thinking now. Gotta love castille's daily pessimistic conservative BS it just always sticks to the facts and pure logic.

castille · Feb 21, 2004, 09:33 am

Marx....nietzsch....Castro....

Amazing how many people justify their statements by bringing up those names. Or how we consider newspaper articles online to be the greatest evidence in the world. Or how we validate our beliefs by posting some wacky site that we blindly agree.

"Hey, if this website says so, it must be true!"

Mathieu · Feb 21, 2004, 10:03 am

As far as I know, you are the first person to bring those name up in thi thread ...

Easier to generalize than understand , huh , Castille !

Feb 19, 2004, 09:46 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Are you are proud: -Communist -Socialist -Anarchist -Fascist -Anarcho-communo-libertario-socialist -Rebelling against society If so, then welcome to the world of Sheep! Baaa! You get these excellent benefits: -The ability to blindly follow political rules set by old men such as "Marx", "Adams", "Hitler", "Stalin". Most of these men probably laugh at you and wonder why you follow their ancient values which existed in a time when people thought you could get hairy palms from wanking! -The ability to agree with a bunch of people who also agree. "Bush sucks" "I agree" "Me too" "Me three". -Free conscience! Unless you are an active terrorist, politician, or secret police officer, you are able to participate in rallies, protests, and various cult meetings without having to actually do anything! Protest against globalisation, then get a Big Mac for breakfast! Who cares about globalisation, you just have to hate it! Screw the poor, its your cause thats important! -Hold noble values. Like the Crusaders, you get to do anything in the name of Communism, Fascism, rebelling, etc. For example, if you don't like McDonalds, then you can burn the store down and kill the employees! "In the name of the cause!" Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 19, 2004, 10:04 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Anyone who claims to be an imperialist these days is actually quite unique. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 19, 2004, 10:13 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	My how unusual to extend the hate so far to the right castille, I mean cripes, theirs anarchists who consider themselves capitalists here. Thats almost criticising capitalists to. I mean you must have an ideal to, that is why we come here, to express and excercise our ideals. Ideally I would prefer a communist system, but I know that if I am to truly help the people I love right now- I need a social democratic philosophy in control of canada looking out for everyones interest, not just the proletariate. That means playing by the rules of the economic system currently in place. I have actually never really hated your out look(it seemed balanced and realistic), just that cynicism that crops up in your concepts of ideals. <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Feb 19, 2004, 10:21 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	There's thinkers and followers in every part of the spectrum. Since you so conveniently excluded moderate, traditional, conservative and right wing view points as having sheeple it makes me wonder how uncitical you are of your own viewpoint. Are you advocating that being a blue sheep is okay but being a red one is not? Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 19, 2004, 11:41 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Gee, and I was hoping this forum would actually spur real thought into politics and society. Instead we get wild rhetoric and extreme generalizations over and over and over and over; if you choose to continue along this path of glossing over much of everything, it is you who is the sheep, Disinvented. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 19, 2004, 10:04 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	You forgot to add american imperialism ....

Feb 19, 2004, 10:13 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	But if you blindly support a governement which act this way, it is quite sheeple too.

Feb 19, 2004, 10:13 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	That you happen to fit into some category does not tell anything at all about the motivations, actions, or nature of beliefs of the individual. Your assertions assume that one merely blindly follows some leader, but often people come to some position through research, critical thought, and experience. All of these are actions of an independent thinking individual, not a sheep. I have friends who claim that communism is too conservative and though I disagree with their beliefs, no one can honestly call them sheep for they came to their beliefs through rigorous thought and specific reasoning. They did not simply and blindly follow any shepherd.

Feb 19, 2004, 10:27 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	It's a common human behavior to try to generalize a subject when they can't (or don't wan't to) understand all the nuance that this subject have.It give a feeling of security when confronted to new beliefs.

Feb 19, 2004, 11:30 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Disinvented Molten Ash Location: Kingston, NY Posts: 27	Everyone fits into some category. To criticize someone for it is moronic and arrogant. Even shepherds are sheep to shepherd-dom. If you don't think that you're a sheep and like to condescend to those whom you think are, then you're just like all those other I-hate-sheeple types that are so different, in exactly the same way. Personally, I find kindred in a lot of what Nietzsche had to say, as well as Epicurus, Hobbes, Sartre, and others. I didn't agree with all they had to say, I don't consider any of them to be great men (there are no great people, only more effective people). However, I take no shame in, for the sake of generalization, referring to myself as a skeptic, an atheist, an existentialist, a nihilist, a non-party libertarian, an anarchist, a zeroist, or whatever macro-category my beliefs may touch on. I don't strictly adhere to any of these categories, with the exception of being a devout atheist, and wouldn't use any such generalization to definitively proclaim who I am. However, for the sake of easy communication, I've been known to cut down on explanations and refer to myself as many things. I don't see the problem to be that people claim to be one thing or another, but that most people do it for the sake of belonging to something greater, something that gives their lives purpose. It's the reason that people join gangs, political parties, and religions.

Feb 19, 2004, 12:39 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	the cult phenomena is interesting "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 19, 2004, 02:51 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Xicano82 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 12	Castille are you a proud democrat or republican? Do you actually think we live in a democracy and think your opinion matters to those in power? You probably do, but you just by all the crap they tell you to on TV thinking that freedom is such a great thing. They'll tell you to jump, and you say "how high". Instead of questioning politicians and taking those who criticze government in a serious debate, you say "BAAAAH". Hell, they're laughing at you right now!!! You probably never stopped to think that some of us have gone through experiences that have made us hate this government and realize the crock of bull sht they feed us everyday. It maybe easy for you to criticize radical thought, since your opinion is defended and manufactured for you in the media everyday. I don't by into the manufuctured opinions that are nicely set up for you, I build my opinions around my experience here in this country because I can not relate to millionaire politicians or corporate news outlets, cuz I don't think they're ever had to worry about what they were going to eat the next day, I have. So it is okay for you to have your opinions and I'll gladly debate with anyone. Just now what the fck you're talking about before you tell my why I think the way I do, K? =P

Feb 19, 2004, 04:42 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	it is funny how americans think everyone sees the world through american eyes... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 19, 2004, 05:48 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
URnotmeRU Guest Posts: n/a	No, it's funny how foriegners feel they know how and what Americans think, like there is something wrong with Americans thinking like Americans, no matter what "that" means.

Feb 19, 2004, 07:15 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	From my own personal experience: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by it is funny how americans think everyone sees the world through american eyes... <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yup, </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by No, it's funny how foriegners feel they know how and what Americans think, like there is something wrong with Americans thinking like Americans, no matter what "that" means.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yup. I used to think that, I try not to anymore. Forums like this are great when trying to grasp how different kindof people think.

Feb 19, 2004, 07:28 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
james? Molten Ash Location: Minnesota Posts: 84	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Paavo,) Yup. I used to think that, I try not to anymore. Forums like this are great when trying to grasp how different kindof people think.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Definitely. I love trying to grasp others' perspectives, and I really consider it one of my strongpoints. A debate forum like this is a perfect way to reduce my ignorance.

Feb 19, 2004, 07:41 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Well, in any population, it would be absurd to say that evryone think in the same way. There is idiots everywhere, that's a universal thing. In every nation there is also sheeple, who think what thier TV said to them, and try no to think too much. It is also universal. It is common people associate the sheeple who constitute a nation as the nation. This generalization is not appropriate , sure, but at the same time I think everyone here is enough intelligent to make the distinction between the textual and logical meaning of using those generalization . As you can say libertarian think that, socialist do this, etc... while it is not everyone who declare themselves libertarian who follow the same ideas. We do not stop us from using those genralisation too. Why?

Feb 20, 2004, 04:10 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Posts: 374	wow broad generalizations followed by strategic deletion of viewpoints you support we're really thinking now. Gotta love castille's daily pessimistic conservative BS it just always sticks to the facts and pure logic. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Feb 21, 2004, 09:33 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Marx....nietzsch....Castro.... Amazing how many people justify their statements by bringing up those names. Or how we consider newspaper articles online to be the greatest evidence in the world. Or how we validate our beliefs by posting some wacky site that we blindly agree. "Hey, if this website says so, it must be true!" Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 21, 2004, 10:03 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	As far as I know, you are the first person to bring those name up in thi thread ... Easier to generalize than understand , huh , Castille !