Stop this now!

[Athena]

This is about saying awful things about all Muslims, and not enough about the horrors committed against these people, by the British, US and Israel. Unfortunately, I can't just pick up a newspaper and present the other side of the story, because our newspapers and our TV news are not presenting the other side. To present the other side, means getting information off the Internet and some how motivating those who clearly are making no effort to understand the Muslim side of what is happening, to pay attention to the other side of the story. If daily we were getting the Muslim side of what is happening, we would be explaining things from their point of view, not just how Bush and Blair want us to understand what is happening. Take a look at the pictures on this web site and then tell us what you think.

http://www.rcnv.org/gaza/pictures.htm

[Dieval]

Assuming you're from the US, I have one question for you....do you even like your country?

[ibm]

Quote by: Dieval Assuming you're from the US, I have one question for you....do you even like your country?

sounds like a question by a commie, errr, patriot to me.

[Dieval]

Quote by: ibm sounds like a question by a commie, errr, patriot to me.

I asked a serious question to someone who seems to like to point out the supposed "horrors" that her country(assuming she's from the US again) has committed. I find it rather odd that someone who likes their country and continues to live here would preach about these horrors at every turn.

[ibm]

so if one lives in a country and that country's government has done something wrong, one is not supposed to point it out without being labeled un-patriotic, espcially when the media is predominantly one-sided?

[Dieval]

Quote by: ibm so if one lives in a country and that country's government has done something wrong, one is not supposed to point it out without being labeled un-patriotic, espcially when the media is predominantly one-sided?

Saying that the govt did something "wrong" is one thing. Preaching about the "horrors" they have supposedly committed is another. No one labeled anyone un-patriotic, except you, trying to put words in my mouth. I asked a simple question to Athena, without using any labels. Maybe she could answer.

[Jack]

Man, this sounds like the 60's "love or leave it" all over again. There is room in our great nation for dissent. Opposing points of view are even protected by the constitution. Do you never make a single negative comment about your family? Just because you criticise something does not automatically imply you don't like or even love it.
I love my country, I have even fought to defend it. I also fought for the freedoms for which it stands. That doesn't not prevent me from finding fault with it and wishing it were even greater than it is. Totalitarian states are the only ones I know who want to stifle all dissent. That's not the American way.
No one put words in your mouth. Your intent was obvious.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Isherwood Man, this sounds like the 60's "love or leave it"

Maybe they had something there...if you don't love it, why are they here?

Quote by: Isherwood No one put words in your mouth. Your intent was obvious.

My intent was not point the finger at someone and say they're unpatriotic(I would have come out and said that if that is what I was getting at)...my intent was to have her answer the question.

[ibm]

whatever you say, mr. d. lol.

"mr. president, did you or did you not have sex with that woman?" - we're not saying that you might've committed adultery, we just want the question answered. eh?

just wondering, mr. d, how old are you?

(p.s. - my intent, you know, is just to have you answer the question.)

[Jack]

Maybe they had something there...if you don't love it, why are they here?

You missed the dishonesty of the premise. I agree, if anyone doesn't love the country they're in, including conservatives, they should find another that makes them happy. But the question presupposes that a dissident doesn't love their country, which is just plain wrong. Should every conservative that whines about the condition of the U.S. leave as well? Come on.

[Dieval]

Quote by: ibm whatever you say, mr. d. lol.

You're intent is also quite clear. You're trying to make me out to be the bad guy here by make it sound as if I'm calling people "unpartriotic", when in fact, you were the one who made the fictitious claim. :rolleyes:

Quote by: ibm just wondering, mr. d, how old are you? (p.s. - my intent, you know, is just to have you answer the question.)

My age is my business and will not be posted on a public thread such as this.

[Chalk]

OK, back ON topic. Of course the news is biased, if politicians staged a speech with two boards either side, showing argument A and B, the population could make an informed decision on the situations instead of putting faith in the government to do the right thing.
The flaw is saying 'awful things about ALL Muslims'- obviously every single member of this religious group is not evil or threatening, as with every element of society. The teachings of most religions uphold principals that are good intentioned, but the media is focusing on the extreimists, because they come across as menacing, and you don't shift papers with articles on the peaceful nature of Islam, but you do with atrocities and such.

[Athena]

Quote by: Dieval Assuming you're from the US, I have one question for you....do you even like your country?

Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue? Please, look at the pictures and comment on them. It is ridiculus to be discussing the Muslim terrorist with no understanding of why they are attacking. Islam has been a very peaceful religion for many years. Jews and Muslims lived together in harmony, until Zionism. It was the Christians who persecuted and killed Jews, especially in Germany, not the Muslims. Why are people arguing recent news and so resistant to the history of how this came about and the Muslim point of view? The connection to the US government is secondary to what Israel has done to Palestinians. If you all want to be political, than for goodness get better informed. We are on the second page of post, and not one has looked at the pictures or even mentioned the history that brings us to terrorism today.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Athena Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue?

I'm not avoiding the issues, just asking how you can love your country yet say that they are committing "horrors"..

Quote by: Athena Please, look at the pictures and comment on them and what Israel has been doing to Palestinians.

There are plenty of threads about Palestinians and Israel here in the past. Focusing on a site which gives only the Pal side of the story is quite biased, IMO.

Here, maybe I should list a few acts these people you claim are not muslim terrorists have committed -

70) April 17, 2004 - A Palestinian homicide bomber from the terrorist group Hamas murdered one Israeli and wounded three when he blew himself up at the Erez industrial zone - click here for more details. 69) February 22, 2004 - A genocidal mass murderer from the Palestinian terrorist group "Hamas" (Islamic "Resistance") blows himself up in a bus in Jerusalem killing 7 innocent Israelis and injuring dozens. - click here for more details. 68) January 29, 2004 - A Palestinian mass murdering bastard murdered 10 Israelis and injured over 50 when he blew himself up inside a bus in Jerusalem, Israel's capital. - click here for more details. 67) January 15, 2004 - Two Israeli soldiers, a border policeman, and a security guard for a private manpower company, were murdered by a female Palestinian suicide bomber at the Erez crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. - click here for more details. 66) December 25, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber, a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) murdered three people, including two women, when he blew himself up at a bus stop under the Geha Bridge in Tel-Aviv, Israel - click here for more details. 65) October 4, 2003 - A Palestinian female homicide bomber exploded in a Haifa restaurant killing nineteen Israelis and injuring sixty. Gideon Zilberstein, a 63-year-old accountant from Haifa, was eating lunch with his wife, his son and his daughter-in-law when the bomber attacked. "Suddenly we heard a huge boom all around us. People were dead or dying next to our table," he said - click here for more details. 64) September 9, 2003 - Two Palestinian homicide bombings, one at a crowded bus stop near Tel Aviv, the second five hours later at a popular Jerusalem nightspot killed 14 Israelis and wounded and maimed dozens. Among the victims of the bombings was the head of a Jerusalem hospital emergency room and his 20-year-old daughter who was going to get married later in the everning. - click here for more details. 63) August 19, 2003 - A mass murderer from the group "Palestinian Islamic Jihad" blew himself up onboard a bus in Jerusalem, killing 18 people and wounding scores, including over 40 children. - click here for more details. 62) August 13, 2003 - Two Palestinian homicide bombers blew themselves in the Israeli towns of Rosh Ha'ayin and Ariel, murdering two Israelis and wounding 12 in almost simultaneous attacks. - click here for more details. 61) July 8, 2003 - Mazal Afari, 65, a resident of Moshav Kfar Yavetz, east of Netanya, Israel, was killed and three of her grandchildren were lightly injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated his explosives inside their home, causing it to collapse. - click here for more details. 60) June 19, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber detonated a bag of explosives in a grocery store located in Moshav Sde Trumot, Israel. Avner Mordechai, 63, the owner of the store, was critically injured in the blast, and later died of his injuries. - click here for more details. 59) June 11, 2003 - Sixteen Israelis were killed and more than 100 were wounded when a fascist Palestinian homicide bomber, dressed as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, detonated his explosives belt on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Palestinian terrorists have attempted 11 homicide bombings and murdered 23 Israelis in the last 4 days, since Palestinians "accepted" the "roadmap for peace" and the end of violence - click here for more details. 58) May 19, 2003 - In the fifth suicide bombing in two days, a Palestinian homicide bomber blew up at the main entrance to the Shaarei Amakim mall in Afula killing three Israelis and wounding 50 - click here for more details. 57) May 18, 2003 - The scum from Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Arafat's Al-Aksa brigades once again murdered unarmed innocent women and children when a homicide bomber blew up on a bus in Jerusalem killing seven people and wounding 20 - click here for more details. 56) April 29, 2003 - A Muslim British citizen blows himself at "Mike's Place", a restaurant in Tel Aviv, murdering 4 Israelis and injuring 50. For more details on the attack and for information on "Mike's place", click here. 55) April 23, 2003 - To prove that Palestinians are serious about not implementing any peace agreement, a Palestinian murderer killed one and wounded nine in a homicide bombing at the entrance to the Kfar Sava train station, northeast of Tel Aviv - click here for more details. 54) March 30, 2003 - In the first suicide bombing since the start of the Iraq war, a Palestinian terrorist detonated himself outside a crowded cafe in the Mediterranean coastal city of Netanya, wounding nearly 40 people, two of them critically - click here for more details. 53) March 5, 2003 - 16 people, including many school children, were massacred by a Palestinian homicide bomber who blew himself up in a crowded bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa - click here for more details. Abigail Litle, a 14-year-old girl, and a citizen of the United States of America, was killed in the blast - click here to read her story. 52) January 5, 2003 - 23 people were killed, and more than 80 were wounded when two Palestinian murderers from the Islamic Jihad blew themselves up. Two powerful blasts, about 2 minutes apart, ripped through a crowded neighborhood near the old Tel Aviv bus station - click here for more details. Steven Cromwell, a 43-year-old father of 2, and a citizen of Ghana, was killed in the blast - click here to read his story. 51) November 21, 2002 - Massacre in Jerusalem: a Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber detonated an explosives belt packed with nuts and bolts to maximize the impact inside a Jerusalem bus filled with schoolchildren. Eleven Israelis were murdered and over 50 wounded in the terrorist attack, including 5 women and 4 children. The Palestinian group Hamas (Islamic Resistance) proudly claimed responsibility for the murders. For more details, click here. Among the victims was Ilan Perlman, an 8-year-old boy, click here to read his story. 50) November 4, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up in a crowded shopping center in Israeli town of Kfar Saba. Two Israelis were murdered and 32 wounded in the terrorist attack, including two infants. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad proudly claimed responsibility for the murders. For more details on the attack, click here. Among the victims was a 15-year-old kid, Gaston Perpiñal, originally born in Argentina. Click here to read his story. 49) October 27, 2002 - A Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber blew himself up outside a gas station outside the Israeli town of Ariel, killing himelf, two Israelis and wounding over 30. Ten to 15 of the wounded were in serious condition, media reports said. A woman shouted at a group of soldiers that she suspected a suicide bomber was among them, and a soldier opened fire, "then the bomber blew up,". The Palestinian terrorist group Hamas proudly claimed responsibility for the murders. For more details, click here. 48) October 21, 2002 - Fourteen people were killed and 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms (200 lbs) of explosives was detonated next to an Israeli bus traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 towards Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop at the Karkur junction when the homicide/suicide bomber, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed that the murders were carried out by two of its members from Jenin. For more details, click here. Among the victims was a 19-year-old young Israeli woman, Sharon Tubol - click here to read her story. 47) October 10, 2002 - A Palestinian terrorist slips while boarding an Israeli bus and falls. The bus driver and a fellow passenger then pinned the bomber to the ground after seeing some wires sticking out of his clothing, and screamed: "It's a terrorist! Everybody get out of here!". Unfortunately, the incompetent Palestinian morron managed to blow himself up murdering Sa'ada Aharon, a 71-year-old grandmother of 15 (click here for her story), and injuring over two dozen. For more details, click here. 46) September 19, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up in a crowded bus in Tel-Aviv, deliberately murdering 5 and wounding over 60 Israeli men, women and children. The blast occurred at about 1 p.m. local time on bus No. 4 at the corner of Allenby and Montefiore Streets, near The Great Synagogue of Tel Aviv. The force of the blast blew the roof off the bus, blew out most of its windows and blackened the interior. A witness, Shmuel Salomon, said he saw bodies being hurled from the bus. "There were arms and legs on the ground. It was a horror," said Shmuel Salomon, who owns a restaurant in the area. For more details, click here. Among the victims was Solomon Hoenig, a 79-year-old grandfather of 5 - to read more about Solomon, click here http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/pale...idebombs.shtml

and it goes on and on and on...
These are the acts that Israel is trying to prevent from happening to their people.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said:
Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue?

I say:
Yes, he is. (You are trying to make him realize that his country is as, if not more guilty than others that we hold up and declare "evil-doers". This is unacceptable to Dieval. His patriotism runs to the core, and he might punch you if you look at his flag cross-eyed. Stay off Mr. Dievals lawn.....)

(Humorous sarcasm in (brackets) and italics)
provided at no extra-charge of course.

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Athena said: Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue? I say: Yes, he is. (You are trying to make him realize that his country is as, if not more guilty than others that we hold up and declare "evil-doers". This is unacceptable to Dieval. His patriotism runs to the core, and he might punch you if you look at his flag cross-eyed. Stay off Mr. Dievals lawn.....) (Humorous sarcasm in (brackets) and italics) provided at no extra-charge of course.

I chose the name Athena, because she was Athens Goddess of Liberty, Justice and Defense. We know her as our Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America.
In the mural at the Capital Building where she is labeled Spirit of America, she brandishes the Sword of Justice. I assume you were meaning to be helpful when you suggested I stay off Dieval's lawn, but first you will have to remove the Sword of Justice from my hand, because none care more about democracy than myself.

We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against. I am here to fight for the democracy we were intended to be, and I will not be retreating from Dieval's lawn. Only if someone's reason is better than mine will I give ground to the other.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said:
I assume you were meaning to be helpful when you suggested I stay off Dieval's lawn,

I say:
No, actually I was intending to be funny , hence this note at the bottom:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
(Humorous sarcasm in (brackets) and italics)
provided at no extra-charge of course.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I was trying to provide you a mental image of Athena, the new kid in the neighborhood being lectured about the mean ol' Mr Dieval at the end of the street by one of his new neighbors.

Sometimes subtle humor is hard to pull off on the keyboard. :eek:

[GeorgeSmiley]

I guess in response to the original question, I would say that if the Israeli military needs to demolish hundreds of houses and construct a wall to protect its nation, then that is what they will have to do. It may be unnessecary, but I do not know the particulars. Nevertheless, Israel has certainly has been provoked enough to do this, by the previous continuous actions of terrorist groups against Israel.

[quote]We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against.-Athena [quote]

Well Athena, I don't know what you see when you look outside your window (I'm assuming that you live in America-i've gotten that impression, if not-excuse me), but what I see does not in any significant way resemble the Third Reich politically, morally, or socially.

Besides the most basic political similarities, and some recent, relatively minor developments, America and the Third Reich are not polically similar. In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties. There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment. (which I think is a good thing)Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude. Bush is to Hitler as a poodle is to a wolf.

Likewise, almost all Americans appear to place what they think is right before what authority says is right. (The two do not nessecarily contradict)There is no "Amerika uber Alles." (I know that "uber" should have an umlaut, but I can't remember the keyboard combo)Anyway,

Finally, there is little trace of the mandatory social conformity that characterized Nazi Germany. There is certainly social conformity, but it is rarely dictated by the state. Indeed, often the most popular and conformed to image is one that rebels against authority.

[Athena]

[quote=GeorgeSmiley]I guess in response to the original question, I would say that if the Israeli military needs to demolish hundreds of houses and construct a wall to protect its nation, then that is what they will have to do. It may be unnessecary, but I do not know the particulars. Nevertheless, Israel has certainly has been provoked enough to do this, by the previous continuous actions of terrorist groups against Israel.

[quote]We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against.-Athena

Well Athena, I don't know what you see when you look outside your window (I'm assuming that you live in America-i've gotten that impression, if not-excuse me), but what I see does not in any significant way resemble the Third Reich politically, morally, or socially. Besides the most basic political similarities, and some recent, relatively minor developments, America and the Third Reich are not polically similar. In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties. There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment. (which I think is a good thing)Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude. Bush is to Hitler as a poodle is to a wolf. Likewise, almost all Americans appear to place what they think is right before what authority says is right. (The two do not nessecarily contradict)There is no "Amerika uber Alles." (I know that "uber" should have an umlaut, but I can't remember the keyboard combo)Anyway, Finally, there is little trace of the mandatory social conformity that characterized Nazi Germany. There is certainly social conformity, but it is rarely dictated by the state. Indeed, often the most popular and conformed to image is one that rebels against authority.

Okay, too much. The subject of the perversion of the US needs to go to another thread. By the way folks I am Libera. I am passionate about truth and justice, and I again, ask you to deal with the information presented. I AM NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD.

The Israelis didn't just now begin demolishing Palistinains homes. This starts before 1948 when the Jews terrorized Palestinians, resulting in them fleeing their homes and becoming refugees. The UN says people have the right of return, and Israel has been violation of UN mandates all these years. Before Zionism the Jews and Muslim lived side by side and in peace. It was the Christians who persecuted and killed Jews, not Muslims.

Our media presents only the Israelis or US point of view of all this conflict. This one sided veiw is not the whole truth. Caring about these people, has nothing to do with my relationship with the American people. Britian was wrong to give the center of Palestine to to Jews, and the US was wrong to support this and to ignore the plight of Palestinians. Over the years I have seen pictures of killed Palestinians and there bombed homes, and dead children, and it seems I am the only one in the forum who has this knowledge. Trying to provide years and years of information that you have ignored in a form that will be read, is like an ant climbing the leg of an elephant with the intentions of rape.

US citizens, you live in a self governing country. It is the most powerful country in the world, and you vote for who controls this power, effecting how it will be used. Your ignorance of the world, Israel and Palestine and oil and economics, is appalling.

[Dieval]

Quote by: GeorgeSmiley I guess in response to the original question, I would say that if the Israeli military needs to demolish hundreds of houses and construct a wall to protect its nation, then that is what they will have to do. It may be unnessecary, but I do not know the particulars. Nevertheless, Israel has certainly has been provoked enough to do this, by the previous continuous actions of terrorist groups against Israel. We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against.-Athena Well Athena, I don't know what you see when you look outside your window (I'm assuming that you live in America-i've gotten that impression, if not-excuse me), but what I see does not in any significant way resemble the Third Reich politically, morally, or socially. Besides the most basic political similarities, and some recent, relatively minor developments, America and the Third Reich are not polically similar. In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties. There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment. (which I think is a good thing)Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude. Bush is to Hitler as a poodle is to a wolf. Likewise, almost all Americans appear to place what they think is right before what authority says is right. (The two do not nessecarily contradict)There is no "Amerika uber Alles." (I know that "uber" should have an umlaut, but I can't remember the keyboard combo)Anyway, Finally, there is little trace of the mandatory social conformity that characterized Nazi Germany. There is certainly social conformity, but it is rarely dictated by the state. Indeed, often the most popular and conformed to image is one that rebels against authority.

VERY well said.

Quote by: Athena US citizens, you live in a self governing country. It is the most powerful country in the world, and you vote for who controls this power, effecting how it will be used. Your ignorance of the world, Israel and Palestine and oil and economics, is appalling.

Do you seriously believe that we can be both ignorant of the world and the most powerful country on the planet at the same time? Doesn't that seem farfetched to you, at best?

Quote by: Athena chose the name Athena, because she was Athens Goddess of Liberty, Justice and Defense. We know her as our Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America.

Just thought I'd point out who Athena, the goddess, was...

Athena was a deity of diverse functions and attributes. Her most conspicuous role was perhaps that of a goddess of war, the female counterpart of Ares. .... In later times she was important as a goddess of wisdom. http://education.yahoo.com/reference.../entry?id=3223