Stop this now!

[Athena]

Assuming you're from the US, I have one question for you....do you even like your country?

Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue? Please, look at the pictures and comment on them. It is ridiculus to be discussing the Muslim terrorist with no understanding of why they are attacking. Islam has been a very peaceful religion for many years. Jews and Muslims lived together in harmony, until Zionism. It was the Christians who persecuted and killed Jews, especially in Germany, not the Muslims. Why are people arguing recent news and so resistant to the history of how this came about and the Muslim point of view? The connection to the US government is secondary to what Israel has done to Palestinians. If you all want to be political, than for goodness get better informed. We are on the second page of post, and not one has looked at the pictures or even mentioned the history that brings us to terrorism today.

[Dieval]

Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue?

I'm not avoiding the issues, just asking how you can love your country yet say that they are committing "horrors"..

Please, look at the pictures and comment on them and what Israel has been doing to Palestinians.

There are plenty of threads about Palestinians and Israel here in the past. Focusing on a site which gives only the Pal side of the story is quite biased, IMO.

Here, maybe I should list a few acts these people you claim are not muslim terrorists have committed -

70) April 17, 2004 - A Palestinian homicide bomber from the terrorist group Hamas murdered one Israeli and wounded three when he blew himself up at the Erez industrial zone - click here for more details.

69) February 22, 2004 - A genocidal mass murderer from the Palestinian terrorist group "Hamas" (Islamic "Resistance") blows himself up in a bus in Jerusalem killing 7 innocent Israelis and injuring dozens. - click here for more details.

68) January 29, 2004 - A Palestinian mass murdering bastard murdered 10 Israelis and injured over 50 when he blew himself up inside a bus in Jerusalem, Israel's capital. - click here for more details.

67) January 15, 2004 - Two Israeli soldiers, a border policeman, and a security guard for a private manpower company, were murdered by a female Palestinian suicide bomber at the Erez crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. - click here for more details.

66) December 25, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber, a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) murdered three people, including two women, when he blew himself up at a bus stop under the Geha Bridge in Tel-Aviv, Israel - click here for more details.

65) October 4, 2003 - A Palestinian female homicide bomber exploded in a Haifa restaurant killing nineteen Israelis and injuring sixty. Gideon Zilberstein, a 63-year-old accountant from Haifa, was eating lunch with his wife, his son and his daughter-in-law when the bomber attacked. "Suddenly we heard a huge boom all around us. People were dead or dying next to our table," he said - click here for more details.

64) September 9, 2003 - Two Palestinian homicide bombings, one at a crowded bus stop near Tel Aviv, the second five hours later at a popular Jerusalem nightspot killed 14 Israelis and wounded and maimed dozens. Among the victims of the bombings was the head of a Jerusalem hospital emergency room and his 20-year-old daughter who was going to get married later in the everning. - click here for more details.

63) August 19, 2003 - A mass murderer from the group "Palestinian Islamic Jihad" blew himself up onboard a bus in Jerusalem, killing 18 people and wounding scores, including over 40 children. - click here for more details.

62) August 13, 2003 - Two Palestinian homicide bombers blew themselves in the Israeli towns of Rosh Ha'ayin and Ariel, murdering two Israelis and wounding 12 in almost simultaneous attacks. - click here for more details.

61) July 8, 2003 - Mazal Afari, 65, a resident of Moshav Kfar Yavetz, east of Netanya, Israel, was killed and three of her grandchildren were lightly injured when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated his explosives inside their home, causing it to collapse. - click here for more details.

60) June 19, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber detonated a bag of explosives in a grocery store located in Moshav Sde Trumot, Israel. Avner Mordechai, 63, the owner of the store, was critically injured in the blast, and later died of his injuries. - click here for more details.

59) June 11, 2003 - Sixteen Israelis were killed and more than 100 were wounded when a fascist Palestinian homicide bomber, dressed as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, detonated his explosives belt on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Palestinian terrorists have attempted 11 homicide bombings and murdered 23 Israelis in the last 4 days, since Palestinians "accepted" the "roadmap for peace" and the end of violence - click here for more details.

58) May 19, 2003 - In the fifth suicide bombing in two days, a Palestinian homicide bomber blew up at the main entrance to the Shaarei Amakim mall in Afula killing three Israelis and wounding 50 - click here for more details.

57) May 18, 2003 - The scum from Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Arafat's Al-Aksa brigades once again murdered unarmed innocent women and children when a homicide bomber blew up on a bus in Jerusalem killing seven people and wounding 20 - click here for more details.

56) April 29, 2003 - A Muslim British citizen blows himself at "Mike's Place", a restaurant in Tel Aviv, murdering 4 Israelis and injuring 50. For more details on the attack and for information on "Mike's place", click here.

55) April 23, 2003 - To prove that Palestinians are serious about not implementing any peace agreement, a Palestinian murderer killed one and wounded nine in a homicide bombing at the entrance to the Kfar Sava train station, northeast of Tel Aviv - click here for more details.

54) March 30, 2003 - In the first suicide bombing since the start of the Iraq war, a Palestinian terrorist detonated himself outside a crowded cafe in the Mediterranean coastal city of Netanya, wounding nearly 40 people, two of them critically - click here for more details.

53) March 5, 2003 - 16 people, including many school children, were massacred by a Palestinian homicide bomber who blew himself up in a crowded bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa - click here for more details. Abigail Litle, a 14-year-old girl, and a citizen of the United States of America, was killed in the blast - click here to read her story.

52) January 5, 2003 - 23 people were killed, and more than 80 were wounded when two Palestinian murderers from the Islamic Jihad blew themselves up. Two powerful blasts, about 2 minutes apart, ripped through a crowded neighborhood near the old Tel Aviv bus station - click here for more details. Steven Cromwell, a 43-year-old father of 2, and a citizen of Ghana, was killed in the blast - click here to read his story.

51) November 21, 2002 - Massacre in Jerusalem: a Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber detonated an explosives belt packed with nuts and bolts to maximize the impact inside a Jerusalem bus filled with schoolchildren. Eleven Israelis were murdered and over 50 wounded in the terrorist attack, including 5 women and 4 children. The Palestinian group Hamas (Islamic Resistance) proudly claimed responsibility for the murders. For more details, click here. Among the victims was Ilan Perlman, an 8-year-old boy, click here to read his story.

50) November 4, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up in a crowded shopping center in Israeli town of Kfar Saba. Two Israelis were murdered and 32 wounded in the terrorist attack, including two infants. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad proudly claimed responsibility for the murders. For more details on the attack, click here. Among the victims was a 15-year-old kid, Gaston Perpiñal, originally born in Argentina. Click here to read his story.

49) October 27, 2002 - A Palestinian homicide/suicide bomber blew himself up outside a gas station outside the Israeli town of Ariel, killing himelf, two Israelis and wounding over 30. Ten to 15 of the wounded were in serious condition, media reports said. A woman shouted at a group of soldiers that she suspected a suicide bomber was among them, and a soldier opened fire, "then the bomber blew up,". The Palestinian terrorist group Hamas proudly claimed responsibility for the murders. For more details, click here.

48) October 21, 2002 - Fourteen people were killed and 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms (200 lbs) of explosives was detonated next to an Israeli bus traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 towards Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop at the Karkur junction when the homicide/suicide bomber, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed that the murders were carried out by two of its members from Jenin. For more details, click here. Among the victims was a 19-year-old young Israeli woman, Sharon Tubol - click here to read her story.

47) October 10, 2002 - A Palestinian terrorist slips while boarding an Israeli bus and falls. The bus driver and a fellow passenger then pinned the bomber to the ground after seeing some wires sticking out of his clothing, and screamed: "It's a terrorist! Everybody get out of here!". Unfortunately, the incompetent Palestinian morron managed to blow himself up murdering Sa'ada Aharon, a 71-year-old grandmother of 15 (click here for her story), and injuring over two dozen. For more details, click here.

46) September 19, 2002 - A Palestinian genocide bomber blew himself up in a crowded bus in Tel-Aviv, deliberately murdering 5 and wounding over 60 Israeli men, women and children. The blast occurred at about 1 p.m. local time on bus No. 4 at the corner of Allenby and Montefiore Streets, near The Great Synagogue of Tel Aviv. The force of the blast blew the roof off the bus, blew out most of its windows and blackened the interior. A witness, Shmuel Salomon, said he saw bodies being hurled from the bus. "There were arms and legs on the ground. It was a horror," said Shmuel Salomon, who owns a restaurant in the area. For more details, click here. Among the victims was Solomon Hoenig, a 79-year-old grandfather of 5 - to read more about Solomon, click here

http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/pale...idebombs.shtml

and it goes on and on and on...
These are the acts that Israel is trying to prevent from happening to their people.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said:
Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue?

I say:
Yes, he is. (You are trying to make him realize that his country is as, if not more guilty than others that we hold up and declare "evil-doers". This is unacceptable to Dieval. His patriotism runs to the core, and he might punch you if you look at his flag cross-eyed. Stay off Mr. Dievals lawn.....)

(Humorous sarcasm in (brackets) and italics)
provided at no extra-charge of course.

[Athena]

Athena said:
Are you avoiding the issue of this thread by attempting to make me the issue?

I say:
Yes, he is. (You are trying to make him realize that his country is as, if not more guilty than others that we hold up and declare "evil-doers". This is unacceptable to Dieval. His patriotism runs to the core, and he might punch you if you look at his flag cross-eyed. Stay off Mr. Dievals lawn.....)

(Humorous sarcasm in (brackets) and italics)
provided at no extra-charge of course.

I chose the name Athena, because she was Athens Goddess of Liberty, Justice and Defense. We know her as our Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America.
In the mural at the Capital Building where she is labeled Spirit of America, she brandishes the Sword of Justice. I assume you were meaning to be helpful when you suggested I stay off Dieval's lawn, but first you will have to remove the Sword of Justice from my hand, because none care more about democracy than myself.

We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against. I am here to fight for the democracy we were intended to be, and I will not be retreating from Dieval's lawn. Only if someone's reason is better than mine will I give ground to the other.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said:
I assume you were meaning to be helpful when you suggested I stay off Dieval's lawn,

I say:
No, actually I was intending to be funny , hence this note at the bottom:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
(Humorous sarcasm in (brackets) and italics)
provided at no extra-charge of course.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I was trying to provide you a mental image of Athena, the new kid in the neighborhood being lectured about the mean ol' Mr Dieval at the end of the street by one of his new neighbors.

Sometimes subtle humor is hard to pull off on the keyboard. :eek:

[GeorgeSmiley]

I guess in response to the original question, I would say that if the Israeli military needs to demolish hundreds of houses and construct a wall to protect its nation, then that is what they will have to do. It may be unnessecary, but I do not know the particulars. Nevertheless, Israel has certainly has been provoked enough to do this, by the previous continuous actions of terrorist groups against Israel.

[QUOTE]We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against.-Athena [QUOTE]

Well Athena, I don't know what you see when you look outside your window (I'm assuming that you live in America-i've gotten that impression, if not-excuse me), but what I see does not in any significant way resemble the Third Reich politically, morally, or socially.

Besides the most basic political similarities, and some recent, relatively minor developments, America and the Third Reich are not polically similar. In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties. There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment. (which I think is a good thing)Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude. Bush is to Hitler as a poodle is to a wolf.

Likewise, almost all Americans appear to place what they think is right before what authority says is right. (The two do not nessecarily contradict)There is no "Amerika uber Alles." (I know that "uber" should have an umlaut, but I can't remember the keyboard combo)Anyway,

Finally, there is little trace of the mandatory social conformity that characterized Nazi Germany. There is certainly social conformity, but it is rarely dictated by the state. Indeed, often the most popular and conformed to image is one that rebels against authority.

[Athena]

[QUOTE=GeorgeSmiley]I guess in response to the original question, I would say that if the Israeli military needs to demolish hundreds of houses and construct a wall to protect its nation, then that is what they will have to do. It may be unnessecary, but I do not know the particulars. Nevertheless, Israel has certainly has been provoked enough to do this, by the previous continuous actions of terrorist groups against Israel.

[QUOTE]We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against.-Athena

Well Athena, I don't know what you see when you look outside your window (I'm assuming that you live in America-i've gotten that impression, if not-excuse me), but what I see does not in any significant way resemble the Third Reich politically, morally, or socially.

Besides the most basic political similarities, and some recent, relatively minor developments, America and the Third Reich are not polically similar. In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties. There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment. (which I think is a good thing)Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude. Bush is to Hitler as a poodle is to a wolf.

Likewise, almost all Americans appear to place what they think is right before what authority says is right. (The two do not nessecarily contradict)There is no "Amerika uber Alles." (I know that "uber" should have an umlaut, but I can't remember the keyboard combo)Anyway,

Finally, there is little trace of the mandatory social conformity that characterized Nazi Germany. There is certainly social conformity, but it is rarely dictated by the state. Indeed, often the most popular and conformed to image is one that rebels against authority.

Okay, too much. The subject of the perversion of the US needs to go to another thread. By the way folks I am Libera. I am passionate about truth and justice, and I again, ask you to deal with the information presented. I AM NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD.

The Israelis didn't just now begin demolishing Palistinains homes. This starts before 1948 when the Jews terrorized Palestinians, resulting in them fleeing their homes and becoming refugees. The UN says people have the right of return, and Israel has been violation of UN mandates all these years. Before Zionism the Jews and Muslim lived side by side and in peace. It was the Christians who persecuted and killed Jews, not Muslims.

Our media presents only the Israelis or US point of view of all this conflict. This one sided veiw is not the whole truth. Caring about these people, has nothing to do with my relationship with the American people. Britian was wrong to give the center of Palestine to to Jews, and the US was wrong to support this and to ignore the plight of Palestinians. Over the years I have seen pictures of killed Palestinians and there bombed homes, and dead children, and it seems I am the only one in the forum who has this knowledge. Trying to provide years and years of information that you have ignored in a form that will be read, is like an ant climbing the leg of an elephant with the intentions of rape.

US citizens, you live in a self governing country. It is the most powerful country in the world, and you vote for who controls this power, effecting how it will be used. Your ignorance of the world, Israel and Palestine and oil and economics, is appalling.

[Dieval]

I guess in response to the original question, I would say that if the Israeli military needs to demolish hundreds of houses and construct a wall to protect its nation, then that is what they will have to do. It may be unnessecary, but I do not know the particulars. Nevertheless, Israel has certainly has been provoked enough to do this, by the previous continuous actions of terrorist groups against Israel.

We are no longer the democracy we defended in wars, but have been perverted the same as the Christian, Republic of Germany was perverted, and we are now what we defended our democracy against.-Athena

Well Athena, I don't know what you see when you look outside your window (I'm assuming that you live in America-i've gotten that impression, if not-excuse me), but what I see does not in any significant way resemble the Third Reich politically, morally, or socially.

Besides the most basic political similarities, and some recent, relatively minor developments, America and the Third Reich are not polically similar. In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties. There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment. (which I think is a good thing)Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude. Bush is to Hitler as a poodle is to a wolf.

Likewise, almost all Americans appear to place what they think is right before what authority says is right. (The two do not nessecarily contradict)There is no "Amerika uber Alles." (I know that "uber" should have an umlaut, but I can't remember the keyboard combo)Anyway,

Finally, there is little trace of the mandatory social conformity that characterized Nazi Germany. There is certainly social conformity, but it is rarely dictated by the state. Indeed, often the most popular and conformed to image is one that rebels against authority.

VERY well said.

US citizens, you live in a self governing country. It is the most powerful country in the world, and you vote for who controls this power, effecting how it will be used. Your ignorance of the world, Israel and Palestine and oil and economics, is appalling.

Do you seriously believe that we can be both ignorant of the world and the most powerful country on the planet at the same time? Doesn't that seem farfetched to you, at best?

chose the name Athena, because she was Athens Goddess of Liberty, Justice and Defense. We know her as our Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America.

Just thought I'd point out who Athena, the goddess, was...

Athena was a deity of diverse functions and attributes. Her most conspicuous role was perhaps that of a goddess of war, the female counterpart of Ares.
....
In later times she was important as a goddess of wisdom.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference.../entry?id=3223

[oranged]

I asked a serious question to someone who seems to like to point out the supposed "horrors" that her country(assuming she's from the US again) has committed. I find it rather odd that someone who likes their country and continues to live here would preach about these horrors at every turn.

It can be hard to move, it took me a while to get to Sweden from US. You should consider that Fidel Castro didn't leave Cuba while it was capitolist. This is just assuming she is one of the 250,000,000 out of 6,500,000,000 people living in America. (Yes Vladameer Lenin did leave russia, but hey he was rich.)

[oranged]

[QUOTE=ibm]sounds like a question by a commie, errr, patriot to me.[/QUOTE
I agree with your politics, but a commie and a patriot are opposites, I am a Commie, or a socialist as it can be called.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I just need to ask, if you are so upset by the past "injustices" against the "muslims" why don't you fly over, sign up and fight with them. Show solidarity for them instead of wasting key strokes on a forum?

[Osborn F Enready]

George Smiley said:
In Nazi Germany all political power was vested in the Nazi Party, while in America there are two major parties, and many minor parties.

I say:
Yes, but you neglect to mention that the two major parties agree on the removal of rights, the regulation of EVERYTHING, the taxation of EVERYTHING and the increase in government power, as well as retaining executive privlidges, since they know they are all who will ever use it.

The minor parties are minor not because of people not supporting their platforms, but because they can't get their platform heard by enough people, at the rights times, due to our current level of coroporatization and media manipulation by both political and corporate elites.

Those together pretty much make your point here, moot.

George Smiley said:
There is tremendous political freedom in America-so much, in fact, that a person may freely slander their own country by comparing it to a historic enemy, and not face any punishment.

I say:
Because you probably don't do it often, and probably not in public circles. Besides, the power of the major parties is more far reaching than that. They don't care what the commoners say, the media controls those brushfires. They care about important people who talk about important things, like people who have worked for Bush's corrupt ass and tried to blow the whistle, anonymously or otherwise. The public is steered by the media like a herd of sheep by their shepards. As long as the media doesn't aire the publics individual outbursts, the masses won't become unsettled. A fine example being all of the protests that were on before the last presidential election. The only real COVERAGE of the protests was by C-Span, and even that was somewhat limited. Free-Speech zones? The only protests if any that the network media covered were when something MAJOR happened. They didn't even televise Badnarik and Cobb getting arrested for trying to enter the presidential debates. It's called government and corporate, overseen and controlled/edited media.

George Smiley said:
Finally, Bush has been criticized recently for taking steps that are accused of being to authoritarian-or "Nazi-like." (e.g. the relative secretness of his administration, and the way he has attempted to install court justices.)Many former presidents (even those who are liked by almost every American, such as Lincoln and FDR) used far more draconian methods in office. In technical substance, these actions are similar to the policies of Hitler, but they are a hundreth of the magnitude.

I say:
I will giveyou that George, but you have to connect the dots in your own statement.

You yourself say that George Bush is minor compared to the use of power compared to past presidents like F.D.R. and Lincoln.

Well, Lincoln had no choice. F.D.R. however was one of the biggest criminals of our nation in my opinion. It was Lincolns unfinished precedent that set the context for F.D.R. to do what he did. Lincoln had to circumvent the Constitution through Executive Order because the CONGRESS WOULD NOT CONVENE, it was his only perceivable way of trying to keep the agreement of nations together in the long term, and the brunt of the civil war was over who was to be considered EQUAL, as the Constitution states all people should be in the eyes of the law.

F.D.R. did what he did, because America was at its knees economically due to governments "supposed mismanagement" but really by design in my opinion. They knew the effect prohibition would have on the economy before they(the legislators) passed it. They knew once prohibition was repealed, the only way they could pass their over-reaching, un-constitutional laws was to weaken the will and resolve of the nation to be free, and independent.

Both of their measures were Draconian in comparison, but one out of necessity(Lincoln), and one out of agenda(FDR).

The point being, both major parties have been conspiring on this agenda since before Hitlers rise to power, and actually many in our system from the major parties at the time corresponded with Hitler on the topics of Eugenics and ideology. There is an elite group within our government, residing in these major parties, bent on bringing to life world government for their(the elites) best intrest, exactly like Hitler. The only way they really differ is their tactics.

Hitler believed in cleansing with fire, and destruction, the earth of the scourge of "impurities" that weaken and diminish the human race. He believed after he gained a certain amount of power, he could do this without serious problems since his following would be so brainwashed, and so focused on the basic requirements(propagating the master race, enslaving or killing all others) that their allegiance would be pure and unwavering. His propaganda machine was very strong, as was his past reputation as a proven result maker.(turning around the German economy) The German people of the time needed a hero, and Hitler gladly stepped into those boots, with an agenda to not only improve life for Germans, but to improve life for the whole human race(the races he selected, of course) His moves for power were grand and sweeping legally, and illegally he was basicly a perfect master villain, ordering the burning of the Reichstag. He had a core group of idealist believers, that fed the propaganda machine to keep the masses complacent, which is all they need be to lose power over their lives, let alone their nation.

In our country things are different. Our forefathers laid a solid foundation with our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence. It took a man of rather low IQ to not understand the words of the Constitution, if they grasped the language. It GUARANTEES life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; Freedom of belief, speech, defence of self and government oppression. To overtake these monumentally simple promises, that have spread through our nation as it grew on those promises, has been no easy task, and the brainchild of wealthy businessmen from generations long before our lifetimes. But when you follow the money trail, step outside the box and look at the timeline, and the events, find and read the "not so popular" accounts that history stores, but doesn't promote in its educational systems or media of today, the picture begins to get much clearer.

(continued next post)