Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

castille · Feb 18, 2004, 10:30 pm

"All Arabs are terrorists"
"Muslim people are terrorists"
"WMDs in Iraq"

Heard those statements? Obviously, if you are part of the left-wing, you would be opposed to those statements. I hear you say "Those statements are generalisations and narrow-minded". Now, lts hear a few more:

"All corporations are evil"
"CEOs are all fat and greedy"
"People become rich by being greedy"
"Anything Bush says is wrong"

Those statements are made by the left. Yet oddly, they are just as generalised and narrow-minded.

So really, what is the difference between the left and the right, apart from their basic philosophies?

SVMc · Feb 18, 2004, 10:45 pm

In and of themselved "left" and "right" are generalizations. You will have blind followers who adhere to retorich in either camp. Futhermore I think it is a fundamental mistake to picture politics as a linear spectrum of left at one end and right at the other. I prefer to view it as a circle (best analogy I've come up with so far, I'm open to others. In the circle if you go far enough left you end up with repressive regimes like Stalin which has loosely been labled a form of communism (althoug I might position it as bureaucratic authoritarianism -- although I'm uncomfortable with that term as well), if you go far enough right you end up with Mussolini Faschism. If you are the population there's not much difference in effect.

Generalizations are dangerous especially when applied unilaterally. BTW has anyone seen the documentary "THE CORPORATION" I though this was a reasonably good attempt at portraying the view points of "left" and "right" reasonably equally and highlighting the paradox of similar goal with divergent methodology.

AnonT · Feb 18, 2004, 11:22 pm

SVMc, I think you posted in the thread on the 2d political axis, you might do some more looking around for other forms of it that fit your opinions better. Basically, that grid also puts all authoritarian and totalitarian governments together, whether they be far left or far right.

SVMc · Feb 19, 2004, 12:48 am

That was one aspect of the 2d chart I agreed with.

m5lange1 · Feb 19, 2004, 06:32 am

The extreme left and extreme right are very similar to one another, they just have different causes and often look to see what the other is supporting to decide what they are against.

It can be frustrating and irritating to read the liberal propaganda (it seems most common in print) or listen to the conservative propaganda (it seems to be most common on the airways).

I manage to take some comfort in seeing that we still swing back and forth a bit as to who is elected (for various offices, not just president). By that I mean, there still seems to be a non prejudiced mass of voters who really do think outside of the party box.

During the primaries, the (left or right) base is pandered to so the rehtoric is more extreme. The rehetoric will (at least attempt) to play to those who are more apt to vote for a person than a party once the primaries are over in a presidential election year. It is assumed the others are "in the bag".

The right says the left are idiots. The left says the right are idiots. This is a rare case where I agree with both of them.

castille · Feb 19, 2004, 08:38 am

Everyone is an idiot.

The smart man makes his own philosophy to fit the situation. The idiots follow the most charismatic leader.

Pyackog · Feb 19, 2004, 03:25 pm

No entire group as a whole are sheep but the left certainly has as many sheep-like individuals as the right does (actually, I think they have far more). They are as guilty of every thing they accuse the right of, in terms of blind following, bias, closed mindedness, submitting to party line, talking points, hypocracy, etc.

Impenitent · Feb 19, 2004, 03:45 pm

everyone is an idiot... especially the enlightened ones...

shultz had a good line... "I see nothink... I know nothink..."

dotcoma · Feb 19, 2004, 06:55 pm

the "left" are the biggest sheep of all....

Anarchist · Feb 20, 2004, 02:05 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
So really, what is the difference between the left and the right, apart from their basic philosophies?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

There is no difference.

Catch 22 · Feb 20, 2004, 03:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
All corporations are evil<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well considering the fact that corporations are organizations designed to be greedy and seeing that greed always leads to immoral actions one could say "all corporations are evil"

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
CEOs are all fat and greedy<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Again not wholly true in itself but for the most part true. CEO pay in the US is now at a multiple of 411 to 1 when compared to the pay of an average worker. That's up from approximately 40 to 1 only 40 years ago.

http://www.inequality.org/facts3fr.html it's the second table down.

"If pay for production workers had grown as fast as pay for chief executives, factory workers would be making an average of $101,156 a year (instead of $25,467) and the minimum wage would be $21.41 (instead of $5.15). (United for a Fair Economy and Institute for Policy Studies, Executive Excess 2002: http://www.FairEconomy.org/press/2002/EE2002_pr.html) "

Moreover who has committed the slew of corporate fraud scandals in the us? There are all kinds of terrorists but so far CEOs and other high ups are the only ones being indicted for Enron type crimes.

castille · Feb 21, 2004, 08:26 am

Quote:

Quote by: Catch 22,

Well considering the fact that corporations are organizations designed to be greedy and seeing that greed always leads to immoral actions one could say "all corporations are evil"

You heard this from some left-wing site, and now you're blindly agreeing with it. Baa. Baa.

Quote:

Again not wholly true in itself but for the most part true. CEO pay in the US is now at a multiple of 411 to 1 when compared to the pay of an average worker. That's up from approximately 40 to 1 only 40 years ago.

The average CEO also spends 6 years more in college than the average worker. CEOs also recieve more stress than the average worker.[/quote]

Quote:

http://www.inequality.org/facts3fr.html it's the second table down.

So all I have to do to get you to agree with me, is make a website? Baa.

Quote:

Moreover who has committed the slew of corporate fraud scandals in the us? There are all kinds of terrorists but so far CEOs and other high ups are the only ones being indicted for Enron type crimes.

Ok, this is possibly the dumbest statement anyone has ever made.

You are saying that the highest corporate criminals are CEOs. But isn't CEOs and executives the ONLY people who can commit corporate crime?

I mean, Jack the Cleaner isn't exactly going to be able to commit a corporate crime, is he?

Riiiight....did you know the majority of murders are committed by murderers?

Did you know the majority of thefts are committed by thieves?

See....I told you people are sheep. You've made the dumbest statement in the world and its fact to you. Why? Because your group agrees.

Baa. Run along to your horde, and nod with the group.

Paavo · Feb 21, 2004, 09:33 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Riiiight....did you know the majority of murders are committed by murderers?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Hahahahah. xD

Catch 22 · Feb 21, 2004, 12:09 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You heard this from some left-wing site, and now you're blindly agreeing with it. Baa. Baa.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually I didn’t blindly accept nor did I hear from a website. It’s simple logic castille..something you seem to lack at times. Corporations are by nature greedy, it’s their job to be greedy so as to maximize profits for shareholders. There is no humanitarian purpose to the corporation it’s simply not in the equation.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The average CEO also spends 6 years more in college than the average worker. CEOs also recieve more stress than the average worker<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Your point being? Last I checked the CEO had work that didn’t involve any strenuous physical activity, nor does the CEO ever have to deal with withering benefits or any other hardships that factory workers face. More education yes but does that justify a salary 411 times more than the average person excluding benefits as well.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
So all I have to do to get you to agree with me, is make a website? Baa<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well if that website has facts empirically sourced you should agree to the validity of the facts.

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/0...03/27/p17s1.htm This is from the csmoniter is that unbiased enough for you?

I could give you plenty of reliable sources all you do is repeat your own cynical mantra.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You are saying that the highest corporate criminals are CEOs. But isn't CEOs and executives the ONLY people who can commit corporate crime?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually businesses fraud can be committed by lower level people as well. If one could see the same amalgamation of criminal intent on the CEO level how come we haven’t seen managers a tier down start a rash of crimes? It wouldn’t be on the level of that of the Ceos but if CEOs are just as greedy as their managerial counterparts a level or so below wouldn’t they also try massively de fraud companies in some way?

antayla · Feb 22, 2004, 01:04 am

Without left AND right there is no whole.

The common factor of both "sides" is their inherent greed. I'm sick and tired of hearing lefties bitch about being poor (specially Americans... cause they can do alot to help themselves and aren't) and the right give excuses for not seeing the big picture (er, the planet is a pretty big picture) it's all alot of hot talk and no action. I'm done with it.

m5lange1 · Feb 22, 2004, 10:47 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
roxdog
the "left" are the biggest sheep of all.... <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The deciples of Mr. Limbaugh even call themselves "ditto heads".

Not excusing the left sheep by any means but to look over the fence and bleat at the other side looks

Ba'a'a'a'a'ad

eburchelli · Feb 22, 2004, 11:03 am

There'd be a heck of a lot of people out of work, if it weren't for corporations. What would you suggest to replace them? The communist model will work well for liberals because they think everyone on earth should be exactly like every other person with the same advantages but without the same efforts. That's like saying a street sweeper should be paid the same wages as a brain surgeon. This places people in a situation where nothing much is accomplished because there is no possibility of upward motion. True, corporate greed is a terrible thing, but it's people driven by the power of money. And the elite have always lived better than the common man. This doesn't change when communism takes over. There are the workers and the ruling class. Much like feudal times when the King and his court ruled along with the Priests, a small middle class and the majority were peasants with no say about anything.

Impenitent · Feb 22, 2004, 12:43 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (m5lange1,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
roxdog
the "left" are the biggest sheep of all.... <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The deciples of Mr. Limbaugh even call themselves "ditto heads".

Not excusing the left sheep by any means but to look over the fence and bleat at the other side looks

Ba'a'a'a'a'ad<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

and if you knew what "ditto heads" meant, you would not have said that... try listening to the program for a few weeks and stop being spoon fed propaganda and lies from the dnc and rush haters...

terstorm · Feb 22, 2004, 03:00 pm

I listen to Rush nearly every day in my carpool and have for nearly a year now. He really is a co*ksucker. But he's absolved...most of his ranting was due to drugs. I realize this now.

Oh yeah , but I'm on the left so therefore I'm a sheep. baaaa-baaaaaaaaa-baaaaaaaaaaa-baaaaaaaaaaaaaa-baaaaaaaaaaaaa. Whatever.

m5lange1 · Feb 22, 2004, 06:25 pm

Impenitant,

Yea... um sure.... I have listened to Rush Limbaugh

And read Al Franken and even went to see Michale Moor's propaganda flicks.

All that stuff is shock entertainment for me. It is just wondering what one of these idiots will say next.

ANYONE who believes Franken, Moore or LIMBAUGH as honest truth tellers ave cajones the size of coco nuts to think anyone else is "spoon fed propaganda".

To me any of you who buy somebody who constantly shows either the left or right as always correct and the other as always wrong are peas in a pod. You are all sheep.

Feb 18, 2004, 10:30 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	"All Arabs are terrorists" "Muslim people are terrorists" "WMDs in Iraq" Heard those statements? Obviously, if you are part of the left-wing, you would be opposed to those statements. I hear you say "Those statements are generalisations and narrow-minded". Now, lts hear a few more: "All corporations are evil" "CEOs are all fat and greedy" "People become rich by being greedy" "Anything Bush says is wrong" Those statements are made by the left. Yet oddly, they are just as generalised and narrow-minded. So really, what is the difference between the left and the right, apart from their basic philosophies? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 18, 2004, 10:45 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	In and of themselved "left" and "right" are generalizations. You will have blind followers who adhere to retorich in either camp. Futhermore I think it is a fundamental mistake to picture politics as a linear spectrum of left at one end and right at the other. I prefer to view it as a circle (best analogy I've come up with so far, I'm open to others. In the circle if you go far enough left you end up with repressive regimes like Stalin which has loosely been labled a form of communism (althoug I might position it as bureaucratic authoritarianism -- although I'm uncomfortable with that term as well), if you go far enough right you end up with Mussolini Faschism. If you are the population there's not much difference in effect. Generalizations are dangerous especially when applied unilaterally. BTW has anyone seen the documentary "THE CORPORATION" I though this was a reasonably good attempt at portraying the view points of "left" and "right" reasonably equally and highlighting the paradox of similar goal with divergent methodology. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 19, 2004, 12:48 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	That was one aspect of the 2d chart I agreed with. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 19, 2004, 06:32 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	The extreme left and extreme right are very similar to one another, they just have different causes and often look to see what the other is supporting to decide what they are against. It can be frustrating and irritating to read the liberal propaganda (it seems most common in print) or listen to the conservative propaganda (it seems to be most common on the airways). I manage to take some comfort in seeing that we still swing back and forth a bit as to who is elected (for various offices, not just president). By that I mean, there still seems to be a non prejudiced mass of voters who really do think outside of the party box. During the primaries, the (left or right) base is pandered to so the rehtoric is more extreme. The rehetoric will (at least attempt) to play to those who are more apt to vote for a person than a party once the primaries are over in a presidential election year. It is assumed the others are "in the bag". The right says the left are idiots. The left says the right are idiots. This is a rare case where I agree with both of them. Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 19, 2004, 08:38 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Everyone is an idiot. The smart man makes his own philosophy to fit the situation. The idiots follow the most charismatic leader. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 18, 2004, 11:22 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	SVMc, I think you posted in the thread on the 2d political axis, you might do some more looking around for other forms of it that fit your opinions better. Basically, that grid also puts all authoritarian and totalitarian governments together, whether they be far left or far right.

Feb 19, 2004, 03:25 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Pyackog Sedimentary Rock Posts: 16	No entire group as a whole are sheep but the left certainly has as many sheep-like individuals as the right does (actually, I think they have far more). They are as guilty of every thing they accuse the right of, in terms of blind following, bias, closed mindedness, submitting to party line, talking points, hypocracy, etc.

Feb 19, 2004, 03:45 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	everyone is an idiot... especially the enlightened ones... shultz had a good line... "I see nothink... I know nothink..." "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 19, 2004, 06:55 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	the "left" are the biggest sheep of all....

Feb 20, 2004, 02:05 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Anarchist Your mom. Posts: 135	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) So really, what is the difference between the left and the right, apart from their basic philosophies?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There is no difference.

Feb 20, 2004, 03:27 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Posts: 374	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by All corporations are evil<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well considering the fact that corporations are organizations designed to be greedy and seeing that greed always leads to immoral actions one could say "all corporations are evil" </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by CEOs are all fat and greedy<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Again not wholly true in itself but for the most part true. CEO pay in the US is now at a multiple of 411 to 1 when compared to the pay of an average worker. That's up from approximately 40 to 1 only 40 years ago. http://www.inequality.org/facts3fr.html it's the second table down. "If pay for production workers had grown as fast as pay for chief executives, factory workers would be making an average of $101,156 a year (instead of $25,467) and the minimum wage would be $21.41 (instead of $5.15). (United for a Fair Economy and Institute for Policy Studies, Executive Excess 2002: http://www.FairEconomy.org/press/2002/EE2002_pr.html) " Moreover who has committed the slew of corporate fraud scandals in the us? There are all kinds of terrorists but so far CEOs and other high ups are the only ones being indicted for Enron type crimes. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Feb 21, 2004, 09:33 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Riiiight....did you know the majority of murders are committed by murderers?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Hahahahah. xD

Feb 21, 2004, 12:09 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Posts: 374	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You heard this from some left-wing site, and now you're blindly agreeing with it. Baa. Baa.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually I didn’t blindly accept nor did I hear from a website. It’s simple logic castille..something you seem to lack at times. Corporations are by nature greedy, it’s their job to be greedy so as to maximize profits for shareholders. There is no humanitarian purpose to the corporation it’s simply not in the equation. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The average CEO also spends 6 years more in college than the average worker. CEOs also recieve more stress than the average worker<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Your point being? Last I checked the CEO had work that didn’t involve any strenuous physical activity, nor does the CEO ever have to deal with withering benefits or any other hardships that factory workers face. More education yes but does that justify a salary 411 times more than the average person excluding benefits as well. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by So all I have to do to get you to agree with me, is make a website? Baa<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well if that website has facts empirically sourced you should agree to the validity of the facts. http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/0...03/27/p17s1.htm This is from the csmoniter is that unbiased enough for you? I could give you plenty of reliable sources all you do is repeat your own cynical mantra. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You are saying that the highest corporate criminals are CEOs. But isn't CEOs and executives the ONLY people who can commit corporate crime?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually businesses fraud can be committed by lower level people as well. If one could see the same amalgamation of criminal intent on the CEO level how come we haven’t seen managers a tier down start a rash of crimes? It wouldn’t be on the level of that of the Ceos but if CEOs are just as greedy as their managerial counterparts a level or so below wouldn’t they also try massively de fraud companies in some way? When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Feb 22, 2004, 01:04 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
antayla Molten Ash Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 56	Without left AND right there is no whole. The common factor of both "sides" is their inherent greed. I'm sick and tired of hearing lefties bitch about being poor (specially Americans... cause they can do alot to help themselves and aren't) and the right give excuses for not seeing the big picture (er, the planet is a pretty big picture) it's all alot of hot talk and no action. I'm done with it. Member of the Free State Project. http://www.freestateproject.com

Feb 22, 2004, 10:47 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by roxdog the "left" are the biggest sheep of all.... <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The deciples of Mr. Limbaugh even call themselves "ditto heads". Not excusing the left sheep by any means but to look over the fence and bleat at the other side looks Ba'a'a'a'a'ad Protester against the culture war!!!!

Feb 22, 2004, 11:03 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	There'd be a heck of a lot of people out of work, if it weren't for corporations. What would you suggest to replace them? The communist model will work well for liberals because they think everyone on earth should be exactly like every other person with the same advantages but without the same efforts. That's like saying a street sweeper should be paid the same wages as a brain surgeon. This places people in a situation where nothing much is accomplished because there is no possibility of upward motion. True, corporate greed is a terrible thing, but it's people driven by the power of money. And the elite have always lived better than the common man. This doesn't change when communism takes over. There are the workers and the ruling class. Much like feudal times when the King and his court ruled along with the Priests, a small middle class and the majority were peasants with no say about anything.

Feb 22, 2004, 12:43 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (m5lange1,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by roxdog the "left" are the biggest sheep of all.... <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The deciples of Mr. Limbaugh even call themselves "ditto heads". Not excusing the left sheep by any means but to look over the fence and bleat at the other side looks Ba'a'a'a'a'ad<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> and if you knew what "ditto heads" meant, you would not have said that... try listening to the program for a few weeks and stop being spoon fed propaganda and lies from the dnc and rush haters... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 22, 2004, 03:00 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
terstorm Molten Ash Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 60	I listen to Rush nearly every day in my carpool and have for nearly a year now. He really is a coksucker. But he's absolved...most of his ranting was due to drugs. I realize this now. Oh yeah , but I'm on the left so therefore I'm a sheep. baaaa-baaaaaaaaa-baaaaaaaaaaa-baaaaaaaaaaaaaa-baaaaaaaaaaaaa. Whatever. <span style='color:blue'>Things Fall Apart---the centre cannot hold</span>* Storm

Feb 22, 2004, 06:25 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 649	Impenitant, Yea... um sure.... I have listened to Rush Limbaugh And read Al Franken and even went to see Michale Moor's propaganda flicks. All that stuff is shock entertainment for me. It is just wondering what one of these idiots will say next. ANYONE who believes Franken, Moore or LIMBAUGH as honest truth tellers ave cajones the size of coco nuts to think anyone else is "spoon fed propaganda". To me any of you who buy somebody who constantly shows either the left or right as always correct and the other as always wrong are peas in a pod. You are all sheep. Protester against the culture war!!!!