Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Poetic_Justice · Feb 20, 2004, 01:00 am

what about the multitudes of voters who dont aggress against us? those who don't vote, who only pay taxes to prevent being prosecuted?
I can't believe that the end justifies the means
and I already know about the freestate project...I however think that we should start by seceding small towns and working our way up...

Leopard · Feb 20, 2004, 01:19 am

Good insight! actually, there are a few subgroups within the Free State Project which agree with you and (we) are making plans for doing such a thing - not sceeding mind you, as it really won't wash in any way, shape, or form - but focusing on the small and building out from there. we currently have two towns under the microscope, one of which is already assured of becoming the first 'Free Town'. It is also where I plan on moving soon (dreading to cold, but, heck, I can take it in my quest for liberty...). If the Free State Project fails, then I see the only viable option being Costa rica: with over 10% of its legislature firmly libertarian and the country acting in very libertarian ways, it may indeed be the last hold out of liberty - it would be sad though to leave the 'what was once' great country of america to the statists, but, they will dwell in the hell of their own making...

regarding voting: all I know is that I am continually being agressed against, from where I can locate my business to whom I can hire or what I can ingest. Its seems that voting is the name of the game, we didn't wanna play by these rules but its the 'game' of the country, so the next best thing to do is play - as hard as possible, with only one goal - to win freedom.

Poetic_Justice · Feb 20, 2004, 03:11 am

sadly, for me, moving to New Hampshire would be moving to a much warmer climate

last month I had to spend a whole freaking week in -60 degree Fahrenheit weather... it really sucked...

My problem is this for moving though. Would it be better to move and set up an 'example'society to bring oters to our way of thinkng, or would it be better to stay where I am and just continue to tell people about libertarianism?(Which in Canada is virtually unknown, as is Austrian Economics, Murray Rothbard, etc.)

As for voting, I originally thought like you but a very eloquent speech which I read by another libertarian swayed me... And to think, right before I got the right to vote too

aww shucks.

Leopard · Feb 20, 2004, 03:44 am

who and what speech? any links?

are you a Canadian citizen? Dual? If dual or american then there might just be a way - except you don't believe in voting... so thats out...

re: 'spreading the word' at your current location
well, as I see it, libertarians have been 'spreading the word' for about 30 years now - and we have an extremely stagnant growth rate. One of the problems is that alot of our ideas are easily margininalized by statists with just wo words: Prove it.

sure we have miniature examples throughout history, but nothing that really compares to what we propose. No wonder we are called 'utopians' and 'dreamers'. What has been missing is... reality. Something tangible we can point to and say, "see, looky there, look how they have such a limited government and yet: drugs are not rampant and taking over society, the neighbors do not have nuclear weapons hidden in their basements, nudists are not parading down main street, the educational system is working better than our public schools, their economy has been growing at phenomonal<sp?> rates every year without this 'boom/bust' cycle we have... they have morals, churchs, community, neighborhoods!" - until that point there is no way we will really ever be able to 'convince' others of whatever truth lies in our ideology.

Thats what the Free State Project will serve to other states, and what the Free Town will serve to other towns in New Hampshire.

US politics is shifting a bit, but only within its own self-defined limits: the republicans are now spending like democrats use to, democrats are starting to advocate fiscal responsibility. Woopie-doo. You get different rhetoric but the same results from either party.

well, once I move myself (within a year, once I can figure out how to move my business without going bankrupt) to the Free State, you officially have an open invitation to come and visit whenever you would like - if nothing else it will be quite interesting viewing a truely libertarian community (no, not some whacked-out Outpost of Militants with a cult leader or somesuch). I will obviously keep ya'all informed of whats happening in my own little world...

good to meet ya,
michael

AnonT · Feb 20, 2004, 05:20 am

What kind of business do you run? I'm signed up to move, but it probably won't be until after college - and if the job I've almost got with the election commission here in Nebraska comes through, it might not happen for a couple more years after that. But, when I do move, it'll be nice to know somebody.

Oh, and I have a question for those libertarians who are against voting: If someone was running for office on the platform of eliminating every government program that you find offensive and thoroughly slashing taxes - thereby reducing or ending government-run extortion - would you vote for him/her? Or would voting for someone who's going to reduce the amount of evil the government is doing be too much like becoming the monster so the monster won't break you?

Jackney Sneeb · Feb 20, 2004, 06:39 am

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,)
What kind of business do you run? I'm signed up to move, but it probably won't be until after college - and if the job I've almost got with the election commission here in Nebraska comes through, it might not happen for a couple more years after that. But, when I do move, it'll be nice to know somebody.

Oh, and I have a question for those libertarians who are against voting:<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Libertarians who don't vote are called "anarchists."

--Jackney Sneeb

AnonT · Feb 20, 2004, 06:49 am

Sombunall of them are.

10 points to anyone who can guess where I first heard the word sombunall!

Leopard · Feb 20, 2004, 09:01 am

I have a Digital Printing Shop

Feb 20, 2004, 01:19 am	#22 (permalink) (top)
Leopard Propertarian Posts: 568	Good insight! actually, there are a few subgroups within the Free State Project which agree with you and (we) are making plans for doing such a thing - not sceeding mind you, as it really won't wash in any way, shape, or form - but focusing on the small and building out from there. we currently have two towns under the microscope, one of which is already assured of becoming the first 'Free Town'. It is also where I plan on moving soon (dreading to cold, but, heck, I can take it in my quest for liberty...). If the Free State Project fails, then I see the only viable option being Costa rica: with over 10% of its legislature firmly libertarian and the country acting in very libertarian ways, it may indeed be the last hold out of liberty - it would be sad though to leave the 'what was once' great country of america to the statists, but, they will dwell in the hell of their own making... regarding voting: all I know is that I am continually being agressed against, from where I can locate my business to whom I can hire or what I can ingest. Its seems that voting is the name of the game, we didn't wanna play by these rules but its the 'game' of the country, so the next best thing to do is play - as hard as possible, with only one goal - to win freedom. Take on the responsibility to be free

Feb 20, 2004, 03:44 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Leopard Propertarian Posts: 568	who and what speech? any links? are you a Canadian citizen? Dual? If dual or american then there might just be a way - except you don't believe in voting... so thats out... re: 'spreading the word' at your current location well, as I see it, libertarians have been 'spreading the word' for about 30 years now - and we have an extremely stagnant growth rate. One of the problems is that alot of our ideas are easily margininalized by statists with just wo words: Prove it. sure we have miniature examples throughout history, but nothing that really compares to what we propose. No wonder we are called 'utopians' and 'dreamers'. What has been missing is... reality. Something tangible we can point to and say, "see, looky there, look how they have such a limited government and yet: drugs are not rampant and taking over society, the neighbors do not have nuclear weapons hidden in their basements, nudists are not parading down main street, the educational system is working better than our public schools, their economy has been growing at phenomonal<sp?> rates every year without this 'boom/bust' cycle we have... they have morals, churchs, community, neighborhoods!" - until that point there is no way we will really ever be able to 'convince' others of whatever truth lies in our ideology. Thats what the Free State Project will serve to other states, and what the Free Town will serve to other towns in New Hampshire. US politics is shifting a bit, but only within its own self-defined limits: the republicans are now spending like democrats use to, democrats are starting to advocate fiscal responsibility. Woopie-doo. You get different rhetoric but the same results from either party. well, once I move myself (within a year, once I can figure out how to move my business without going bankrupt) to the Free State, you officially have an open invitation to come and visit whenever you would like - if nothing else it will be quite interesting viewing a truely libertarian community (no, not some whacked-out Outpost of Militants with a cult leader or somesuch). I will obviously keep ya'all informed of whats happening in my own little world... good to meet ya, michael Take on the responsibility to be free

Feb 20, 2004, 09:01 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
Leopard Propertarian Posts: 568	I have a Digital Printing Shop Take on the responsibility to be free

Feb 20, 2004, 01:00 am	#21 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	what about the multitudes of voters who dont aggress against us? those who don't vote, who only pay taxes to prevent being prosecuted? I can't believe that the end justifies the means and I already know about the freestate project...I however think that we should start by seceding small towns and working our way up...

Feb 20, 2004, 03:11 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	sadly, for me, moving to New Hampshire would be moving to a much warmer climate last month I had to spend a whole freaking week in -60 degree Fahrenheit weather... it really sucked... My problem is this for moving though. Would it be better to move and set up an 'example'society to bring oters to our way of thinkng, or would it be better to stay where I am and just continue to tell people about libertarianism?(Which in Canada is virtually unknown, as is Austrian Economics, Murray Rothbard, etc.) As for voting, I originally thought like you but a very eloquent speech which I read by another libertarian swayed me... And to think, right before I got the right to vote too aww shucks.

Feb 20, 2004, 05:20 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	What kind of business do you run? I'm signed up to move, but it probably won't be until after college - and if the job I've almost got with the election commission here in Nebraska comes through, it might not happen for a couple more years after that. But, when I do move, it'll be nice to know somebody. Oh, and I have a question for those libertarians who are against voting: If someone was running for office on the platform of eliminating every government program that you find offensive and thoroughly slashing taxes - thereby reducing or ending government-run extortion - would you vote for him/her? Or would voting for someone who's going to reduce the amount of evil the government is doing be too much like becoming the monster so the monster won't break you?

Feb 20, 2004, 06:39 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,) What kind of business do you run? I'm signed up to move, but it probably won't be until after college - and if the job I've almost got with the election commission here in Nebraska comes through, it might not happen for a couple more years after that. But, when I do move, it'll be nice to know somebody. Oh, and I have a question for those libertarians who are against voting:<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Libertarians who don't vote are called "anarchists." --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 20, 2004, 06:49 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	Sombunall of them are. 10 points to anyone who can guess where I first heard the word sombunall!