The Bali Bombers

[G. Adams]

Capitalists are a class, and its not loony lefties who alone think so. Any political scientist consider capitalists as a class when dealing with class relations.

Capitalism is a theory, one in which capitalists sit at the top of the social heiarchy. Capitalism has never existed purely because, shock horror, it doesn't work. When people get rich they like to have the rules set in their favour, thus corrupting capitalism. Once in power the rich don't wan't to lose, so must build their Machievellian welfare states.

And capitalism as an era has existed, we live under it now. Once the world catches up, then we may progress to communism.

[Geoff332]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Capitalist is NOT a class OR a theory. Its something thats never actually existed, and maybe never will.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>It is generally treated as both by most analysts. If you are claiming it is not, then I suggest you back that claim up.

[castille]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Capitalists are a class, and its not loony lefties who alone think so.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

So who are the capitalists? Am I a capitalist? But I'm poor. Are you a capitalist? You eat capitalist food and go to capitalist schools. Can you tell me who is a member of this "capitalist class"?



</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

Capitalism is a theory, one in which capitalists sit at the top of the social heiarchy. Capitalism has never existed purely because, shock horror, it doesn't work. When people get rich they like to have the rules set in their favour, thus corrupting capitalism. Once in power the rich don't wan't to lose, so must build their Machievellian welfare states.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Once again, the Communists come up with their propaganda.

"The world is ruled by Imperialistic Nazi capitalists who work secretly with the United Nations to take over the world. Also Elvis is alive."

Beware! The Mind Stealers will come for your soul soon! But if you wear your silver topped Anti-Brainwave Communist Hat you might be protected!

Oh and don't forget the Stone Cutters Conspiracy Theory. Homer Simpson is a member of this evil capitalist imperialist neo-nazi group.


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
And capitalism as an era has existed, we live under it now. Once the world catches up, then we may progress to communism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Progress? You mean progress to Stalin and death camps and mass exterminations of anyone who doesn't support Communism?

I'm more liable to think most former Communist dictatorships are progressing into liberal democracies....ask any Russian or Eastern European if they think Communism is an "improvement" over democracy.

[G. Adams]

Capitalists, or bourgousie are a class of people who bring wealth to themself through manipulation of currently owned capital. Proleteriat are those who have no capital and can only sell their labour to capitalists. Every time they do this, they lose out, because their labour creates X amount of wealth, yet they will get only a fifth of it perhaps. There is a petty bourgousie who aspire to become fully fledged bourgois, and they have to combine labour with capital (often borrowed). The petty bourgois are currently in a safe time, where it is possible to achieve the goal of moving into the bourgois. But as capitalism is based upon expanding wealth, when the big corporations reach their maximum growth through other courses, they have to crush, or buy up sometimes, the competition.

You know if your as intelligent as you try to make us believe I would have though you would know such elementary basics of politics. And not left wing politics, all comparative politics works with this division, as well as others.

Its not conspiracy. I don't see it as an all encompasing plot. But look at it like this. I'll use Britian as my example, being familiar with it. In the mid 19th century britain expanded its sufferage greatly, allowing many of the working class (not women though yet) to vote. This brought about mass movements and mass parties. Marx's works had terrified those with wealth, the unwashed masses were going to take all their hard stolen wealth! These mass parties, although not yet in government, had wide support. All across Europe there were revolutions happening, notably the 1848 ones and the Paris Commune. GB governments did not want to see the same happening here. So what they did was take some of the mass parties demands and put them into action. So the dole was created. And bit by bit they added more of these demands into their own politics. So the support for radical parties, such as the Communist Party of Great Britain, dropped because the basic standard of living had improved, so people were less desperate for a change.

This building of the welfare state continued right up to 1979. And then the governments have felt comfortable enough to start to take it all apart.

I suggested it was Machievellian because, and again you should know this if your a student of politics, Machievelli's most important rule was (paraphrasing) 'to put your populace in such a situation that they cannot imagine life without, that they need you more than you need them'

And this is what the welfare state has done. 100 years ago, if there was no welfare state, they would have revolted and created one. If there was no welfare state at all nowadays, people wouldn't know what to do. They would be in complete misery. The state has created such a situation that we are totally dependant on the government.

[G. Adams]

And yes, progress. Those countries, as I have stated before, were not communist. They are of course progressing now as they have left a totalitarian regime. But once capitalism, under liberal democracy, has fully realised itself, then we can progress to communism.

[mustardplaster]

With all th edifferent opinions, what makes you think that your opinion is th eright one and that you can make the call as to who dies and who doesn't.

You cannot win by killing someone who thinks that by death they will go meet God. You will only assist.

[castille]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Capitalists, or bourgousie are a class of people who bring wealth to themself through manipulation of currently owned capital.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You know if your as intelligent as you try to make us believe I would have though you would know such elementary basics of politics. And not left wing politics, all comparative politics works with this division, as well as others<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>


Firstly, what the fuck are you talking about? I've taken 4 semesters of university politics, and frankly I've never come across this "capitalists are evil manipulators" bullshit. And consider that Australia is a pretty left-leaning academic country. Sorry, but I don't attend your Communist propaganda rallies so I dont know the Communist view of the world (our politics professor prefers to examine reality rather than crazy theories).


Lets try and put this into the real world (not your crazy Communist world).

Ok, I am a capitalist. One of my businesses involves improving the lives of senior citizens by giving them rapid access to videos.

However, since I took the effort and RISK of starting such a business (I could've gone bankrupt if nobody wanted to hire my videos), I should therefor get compensation.

How much compensation? Well, however much the senior citizens want to pay me.

Then I hired 2 kids from junior high to take over delivering the videos. I pay them 50% of whatever I earn. Why should I get my 50%? Well because I took the RISK ($4000 bank loan), and if the business fails I go bankrupt. Secondly, I lend them bikes to ride to deliver the videos (for free, with my own money).

Those high school kids wont go bankrupt if my business fails. I will.


Therefor, a barter system just took place.

ME: I exchanged RISK (knowing I will go bankrupt if anything goes wrong) for money.
WORKERS: They exchanged labour for money.
CUSTOMERS: They exchanged money for convenience.


So who did I manipulate? The old people? Well no, they wanted to pay me for it. Did I manipulate the workers? Well no, I believe 50% of the profit is enough compensation for a smooth secure job (they get more money than their friends who sell drugs).


So who did I manipulate? Everyone was happy with the deal. The old people got convenience for a few bucks, the kids get paid $20 average each hour (and they're 12 years old), and I get paid for my risk.

Who did I manipulate?

[G. Adams]

I never said evil manipulators of money, I said manipulators of money, but hey maybe thats a glimpse of your consciounce breaking through your stoney cold heart.

By manipulators of money I mean this. They take some capital, invest it into X, Y and Z. The profits brought back from these investments provide them with enough wealth to live well, plus some for savings. They do not actually create anything, they don't build, grow or add to anything special to humanity.

And then your going to come out with your now tired whine of 'but i work soo hard, and I'm not even rich...' Thats because you right now are not a capitalist, you are petty bourgois. The capitalist is the bank who gives you the loan, or whoever is doing so. Oh and now its 'but I worked to raise the capital'. Yes, but you are in a minority, most people do not earn enough to set aside something to save for a business venture later. You have the benefit of living in a wealthy society, with money coming in from abroad, and the people who pull the strings are prepared to have a little tax in order to have a stable society (taxes spent on welfare, reducing social discontent).

Those kids are also born into a stable society, and if your business fucks up, they go back to skiving from their parents. If your workers are in the same situation as most workers, without welfare nets, if your business goes bust, they go hungry. They spend say 10 years working for you, never earning enough to save, just enough to live another day, so what happens when your bussiness goes bust? They wasted ten years of their life only to be left to starve.