hindstight/foresight

[Athena]

Why do US citizens refer to their forefathers? The US has always been a nation of political change. Why do they look back instead of forward?

For me the most obvious answer is we have imitated Germany in every significant way, and have become what defended our democracy against, only with our technology, we are even worse than what we defended our democracy against. The only hope we have of correcting this is, to remember the democracy we defended, and that requires looking back. If we don't look back and if we do not return public education to liberal education, I think we have fought every war for nothing, and it is a horror above horrors to continue sending our young to fight a war that has nothing to do with the defence of the democracy. Democracy is a culture and you can't spread it with weapons.

[Jack]

Maybe it's simple nostalgia. We humans seem to do that a lot. We romanticize the past by remembering it poorly and inaccurately, then convince ourselves it was "the good ol' days". The future, being unknown, is far more frightening to many than the past.
But you're right that if we don't recall the purpose and form of our original democracy now and then, we may stray further and further from the original concept as time goes on and the world becomes a more complex environment.

[castille]

People don't realise 500 years ago, we had no toilet paper and married our cousins.

[righthand]

Quote by: castille People don't realise 500 years ago, we had no toilet paper and married our cousins.

500 years ago we didn't marry at all. Marriage started as a method of controlling property among the gentry and we still have no toilet paper. ha ha. As for cousins, don't start me.

[Jack]

we had no toilet paper and married our cousins.

Isn't it still that way in certain parts of the country?

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Jeber Isn't it still that way in certain parts of the country?

Hey - lay off Utah!

[mr.perfecto]

Quote by: Athena Why do US citizens refer to their forefathers? The US has always been a nation of political change. Why do they look back instead of forward? For me the most obvious answer is we have imitated Germany in every significant way, and have become what defended our democracy against, only with our technology, we are even worse than what we defended our democracy against. The only hope we have of correcting this is, to remember the democracy we defended, and that requires looking back. If we don't look back and if we do not return public education to liberal education, I think we have fought every war for nothing, and it is a horror above horrors to continue sending our young to fight a war that has nothing to do with the defence of the democracy. Democracy is a culture and you can't spread it with weapons.

Modern Liberalism. People today are looking toward time periods before this disease infected our society. Subjecting children to a liberal education should be considered torture and a human rights violation. Its down right un-American. Why sit around debating what the definition of "Is" is? When you can be doing something productive like learning survival skills. People should get their basic indoctrination in a church, backed by the authority of God and a State that isn't squeamish about helping people who haven't learned self-discipline.

If we want a country we can be proud of, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and demand respect and decency. If we do a better job of self-policing we won't need cops armed to the teeth patrolling the streets.

[righthand]

Quote by: Mr.perfecto Modern Liberalism. People today are looking toward time periods before this disease infected our society. Subjecting children to a liberal education should be considered torture and a human rights violation. Its down right un-American. Why sit around debating what the definition of "Is" is? When you can be doing something productive like learning survival skills. People should get their basic indoctrination in a church, backed by the authority of God and a State that isn't squeamish about helping people who haven't learned self-discipline. If we want a country we can be proud of, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and demand respect and decency. If we do a better job of self-policing we won't need cops armed to the teeth patrolling the streets.

Is this for real.

People today are looking toward time periods before this disease infected our society.

means you could never have a future never mind a present. Is this a hankering for the Wild West myth or before.

Subjecting children to a liberal education should be considered torture and a human rights violation. Its down right un-American ....When you can be doing something productive like learning survival skills.

This CANNOT be for real. What is 'un-American', who defines it? Who's got the biggest flag. This is anti-education and is nothing to do with liberalism or any other 'ism'.

You cannot

demand respect and decency.

You earn respect. One man's decency is another man's 'whatever'. Has self-policing ever worked? As long as America claims the 'right' to bear arms then

cops armed to the teeth patrolling the streets

are necessary. In Ireland our police do NOT bear arms. Only a specially trained unit does, but not in the streets. But then our citizens do not have a 'right to bear arms', so don't. Even shotguns are out.

People should get their basic indoctrination in a church, backed by the authority of God and a State that isn't squeamish about helping people who haven't learned self-discipline.

I'm still not convinced that this blog isn't a put up. If this the level of debate and ideas, then I'm not sure if I'll stick around. I despair for any chance of change in America if...oh God...what's the point.

[Athena]

Quote by: mr.perfecto Modern Liberalism. People today are looking toward time periods before this disease infected our society. Subjecting children to a liberal education should be considered torture and a human rights violation. Its down right un-American. Why sit around debating what the definition of "Is" is? When you can be doing something productive like learning survival skills. People should get their basic indoctrination in a church, backed by the authority of God and a State that isn't squeamish about helping people who haven't learned self-discipline. If we want a country we can be proud of, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and demand respect and decency. If we do a better job of self-policing we won't need cops armed to the teeth patrolling the streets.

Ah, ah, I am horrified that someone would say such an awful thing. Right here is the best demonstration of what has gone wrong with the US. Okay, Mr. Perfecto, please, explain how your idea of a good education, produces anything besides human products for industry? How does education exclusively for technology and than religous indocrination, prepare citizens for self government? Do you have anything to say about your complete disregard for separation of church and state?

[Athena]

Quote by: righthand Is this for real. means you could never have a future never mind a present. Is this a hankering for the Wild West myth or before. This CANNOT be for real. What is 'un-American', who defines it? Who's got the biggest flag. This is anti-education and is nothing to do with liberalism or any other 'ism'. You cannot You earn respect. One man's decency is another man's 'whatever'. Has self-policing ever worked? As long as America claims the 'right' to bear arms then are necessary. In Ireland our police do NOT bear arms. Only a specially trained unit does, but not in the streets. But then our citizens do not have a 'right to bear arms', so don't. Even shotguns are out. I'm still not convinced that this blog isn't a put up. If this the level of debate and ideas, then I'm not sure if I'll stick around. I despair for any chance of change in America if...oh God...what's the point.

Oh please, Righthand, do not go now! I am crying. Yes, this is the level of our political debates, and the majority of the US citizens don't know any better. This is why I have repeatedly refered to our Deist Founding Fathers who put more trust in reason than in religious indoctrination. The US threatens to be even worse than Germany was, because yes, Mr. Perfecto, is a perfect representation of the masses in the US. How do you think Bush got re elected? Don't quit now, but get people you know to join the forums. If we don't attempt to save the world from what the US has become, there is no hope.

[Jack]

Athena, I doubt that, no matter how many like-minded people joined this forum, that we'd do much here to effect a change in the direction of the country. Now if we could fire up some folks to get active in their communities and the political sphere as a counter to the current group-think going on there, that might do some good.
And mr.perfecto, if by "liberal education" you mean a well-rounded, not influenced unduly by any particular belief system, exposed to many different thoughts and teachings type system, which is what college in the U.S. usually strives to be...then I'd hate to run into any child who graduates from what you would consider an appropriate educational system.

[Athena]

For goodness sakes of course I am doing what I can locally. There is this excellent organization called "Constitutional Rights Foundation" that provides educational material suitable for grade school classrooms. I hope to use these teaching materials to teach in a charter school, and hope to get the local Cicero Society to fund the teaching materials.
Then I hope our efforts at this charter school are so impressive the rest the community will take note.

My goal is return our nation to education for democracy, and the way to do is prove this education leads radical and highly desirable behavior change, which leads to a lower crime rate and decreases all social problems. If this is demonstrate in one school, that prehaps another will try it, and then perhaps a whole city and then the state and so on.
Ideas can be spread, and they can take hold of population. What I am trying to do was done in the US until 1958. This is old and tested, and since we replaced that education, social problems and therefore budget problems have spiraled out of control. We just need to build awareness of what happened, and what the alternative is, and then get attention to the benefits of returning to preparing citizens of self government.

[mr.perfecto]

Quote by: Athena Ah, ah, I am horrified that someone would say such an awful thing. Right here is the best demonstration of what has gone wrong with the US. Okay, Mr. Perfecto, please, explain how your idea of a good education, produces anything besides human products for industry? How does education exclusively for technology and than religous indocrination, prepare citizens for self government? Do you have anything to say about your complete disregard for separation of church and state?

I completely support SOCAS. I don't see that I've said anything that could make you think I don't.

"Education exclusively for technology" leaves the philosophical considerations to be figured out elsewhere. All the preparation a person needs for self-government are a solid definition of right and wrong and sure-fire knowledge that the consequences of wrong are punishment. Segregating children from the rest of society for the main working hours of the day is nonsense. So is turning schoolhouses into indoctrination centers. Everyone expects to be indoctrinated in a church, you decide how much you need and attend accordingly.

[fedfem]

Quote by: mr.perfecto I completely support SOCAS. I don't see that I've said anything that could make you think I don't. "Education exclusively for technology" leaves the philosophical considerations to be figured out elsewhere. All the preparation a person needs for self-government are a solid definition of right and wrong and sure-fire knowledge that the consequences of wrong are punishment. Segregating children from the rest of society for the main working hours of the day is nonsense. So is turning schoolhouses into indoctrination centers. Everyone expects to be indoctrinated in a church, you decide how much you need and attend accordingly.

But who decides what is right and wrong? Also, philosophy and religion are not the same and all should be taught in a comparative sense. Teaching one how to do math and simple chemistry along with "shop" is not enough to make a citizen well rounded. Whatever happened to classes in Civics or World Civilizations and the Arts--music, paintings, etc...? These are not common subjects in most public schools today.

[Athena]

Quote by: fedfem But who decides what is right and wrong? Also, philosophy and religion are not the same and all should be taught in a comparative sense. Teaching one how to do math and simple chemistry along with "shop" is not enough to make a citizen well rounded. Whatever happened to classes in Civics or World Civilizations and the Arts--music, paintings, etc...? These are not common subjects in most public schools today.

Thank you fedfem!!! You might want to check out "The Constitutional Rights Foundation"
www.crf-usa.org They send information free of charge and I think this organization is worth supporting.

[Athena]

Quote by: mr.perfecto I completely support SOCAS. I don't see that I've said anything that could make you think I don't. "Education exclusively for technology" leaves the philosophical considerations to be figured out elsewhere. All the preparation a person needs for self-government are a solid definition of right and wrong and sure-fire knowledge that the consequences of wrong are punishment. Segregating children from the rest of society for the main working hours of the day is nonsense. So is turning schoolhouses into indoctrination centers. Everyone expects to be indoctrinated in a church, you decide how much you need and attend accordingly.

This is exactly how the Germans thought when they became Nazi, Germany. The Germans were good Christian people, just like people in the US country. The US adopted the Germany model of education for technology, for military and industrial purpose, and left moral training to the church, just like Germany did. The US replaced its training for independent thinking with "group think" because this is best for the rapid advancement of technology. The US replaced the Conceptual Method of education with the Behaviorist Method that is also used for training dogs. Dogs do not vote. Hopefully, humans do vote, but if they are educated as the Germans were educated, the result is the New World Order, and this is what the US defended democracy against, until in 1958 when those in power did all that could be done to make the US the leader of the New World Order. Bush means exactly what he says, when he says the US is the leader of the New World Order.

Bush's No Child Left Behind Act, mandates schools to provide military recruiters with students names and address. Federal mandates label the Privacy Act, enable the federal government to track citizens through schools, banking and medial services, and this began before 9/11, but citizens were not paying attention, as good Germany folk, US citizens trust their God too much, and don't enough attention to political changes.

[mr.perfecto]

Who decides where the right place to put the cupholders on next year's model automobile? Don't over think it.

You can study world civilizations, art, or whatever in your own time. Having a hobby isn't against the law and mr.perfecto recommends everyone develop at least one. FYI, all public schools still teach all those subjects.

I know you first reaction is, who is the nutcase challeging conventional Liberal wisedom, but lets analyze what y'all and I are saying. You want "well-rounded" students and you expect to get them by sequestering them with a teacher (an authority figure) who expects them to regurgitate facts. How warped is that?

[Jack]

Not me.
I've been protesting the way school kids are taught since I was one. Our educational system is a prime example of the uselessness of trying to teach "what" to think instead of "how" to think. We teach facts so the kids don't have to think...just memorize the facts for the test and you'll graduate. You won't know how to think for yourself, but you'll be bursting full of facts, until you start to forget them all, usually two weeks after graduation.
Schooling was a bit better in the 50's and 60's. You were at least encouraged to learn a second language and we had debate clubs to allow the students to develope their own thoughts on topics being debated. But overall, our educational system has been third rate since it consisted of scattered one-room schoolhouses.

[fedfem]

Quote by: Jeber Not me. I've been protesting the way school kids are taught since I was one. Our educational system is a prime example of the uselessness of trying to teach "what" to think instead of "how" to think. We teach facts so the kids don't have to think...just memorize the facts for the test and you'll graduate. You won't know how to think for yourself, but you'll be bursting full of facts, until you start to forget them all, usually two weeks after graduation. Schooling was a bit better in the 50's and 60's. You were at least encouraged to learn a second language and we had debate clubs to allow the students to develope their own thoughts on topics being debated. But overall, our educational system has been third rate since it consisted of scattered one-room schoolhouses.

Agree that fact memorizing means nothing. You can thank that on the so called "standardized tests." Critical thinking is what is lacking in most PS curriculums today and in society as a whole.

[fedfem]

Quote by: mr.perfecto Who decides where the right place to put the cupholders on next year's model automobile? Don't over think it. You can study world civilizations, art, or whatever in your own time. Having a hobby isn't against the law and mr.perfecto recommends everyone develop at least one. FYI, all public schools still teach all those subjects. I know you first reaction is, who is the nutcase challeging conventional Liberal wisedom, but lets analyze what y'all and I are saying. You want "well-rounded" students and you expect to get them by sequestering them with a teacher (an authority figure) who expects them to regurgitate facts. How warped is that?

Understanding history and how human thought has developed is not a hobby--Vocational schools do NOT teach those subjects--btw. Many urban public schools can hardly teach anything of substance besides how to take the tests. I agree with you that regurgitating facts is not getting an education--I believe that is Athena's point.