Mercury in Vaccines Causing Autism

[Jonathan]

Kathleen,

I wonder if to compare a mouse’s homicidal behavior and biting in pre-school is to make the fallacy of the spectrum. This is to argue that because, two things exist along a spectrum that there is no difference between them. Biting in pre-school (you did not explain the reason for the biting) is very much different from what occurred in the mice.

A lack of empathy is not a diagnostic criteria for autism in either the DSM or the ICD. Dr. Baron-Cohen would tell us that autistic persons lack theory of mind, but that is not the same thing as empathy (and this has been challenged as well). I have not observed a lack of empathy in autistic persons as a representative trait.

I notice a reference to the California numbers which Mr. Rollens has analyzed as dropping. You caught at the wrong time to mention this. I am currently analyzing those data. You may have failed to notice some things about them. I have listed them:

The California DDS have explicitly stated that their data should not be used to calculate for incidence or prevalence. There are ethical problems in ignoring this.

Mr. Rollens uses all the data in the quarterly reports, including the 62-99 ages cohort. This is grievous because, autism by definition does not develop in persons older than age 3.

Mr.Rollens refers to the net change between quarters as “new intakes” this is a explicit violation of the DDS recommendations. The change between quarters may represent a number of other things.

Spikes of high and lows are the representative pattern in the DDS. In other words, this is not the first drop recently for the 3-5 age cohort, which should be the cohort of interest.

These data do not resemble the actual descriptive epidemiology is terms of prevalence or incidence.

There is no stable baseline in the DDS data to establish a epidemic threshold.

There are some cyclical patterns in the data (spikes in the March quarter).

These data are descriptive and can not demonstrate causality.

[Ken Carman]

Kathleen, Having carefully read Dr. Hornig’s study, I have some earnest complaints about it. The mice in that study did a number of interesting thins like chewing through a cage mates skull. To my knowledge no autistic child has ever chewed through a play mates skull. I notice her mention of inflammation, but what about minicolumns, those are also found in the brains of autistic persons. I saw no mention of these in Dr. Hornig’s article. My concern is that Dr. Hornig convincingly demonstrated that some mice are more susceptible to effects from mercury via genetic means, but that she has taught us nothing about autistic persons. *************** There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again. Yours, Volconvo Debate Forums team

Fellow posters, maybe there's something wrong with my Gateway, quite possible, considering, but I can't find the above post anywhere. I tried both threads. Plus I'm a little suspicious because after I posted my own thread (Mercury Poisoned Politics) I somehow wound up on the other without knowing it. Definately might explain some of Rick's first complaints about my posts since I hadn't realized I had switched threads at first.

Wonder, because there is an unintentional duplication here, could there be some link problems?

It's my fault, as I explained. If I had checked for another thread at the time my old Gateway, that was being very fussy at the time, would have dumped everything that day. Plus I thought it an odd topic and didn't expect there to be another thread. Oops.

Now, on to the topic...

I can't address the rest, and will leave that to those who are more familiar with criteria, methodology and the like. But as far as the mouse comment I don't think any decent scientist would expect the behavior in mice and men (or women) to be exactly the same.While I've met a few poor souls in my lifetime whose mental abilities made me suspicious that they may have had exactly that type of transplant, attempts at humor aside, a mouse brain is a mouse brain and a human brain is...

But one might consider Ryan's behavior (my column that started the other thread) similiar in a way. He would "do his laps" and knock down anyone in his way as if they weren't there. I would think that a mouse who eats his fellow cage mate might simply be thinking (as much as any mouse "thinks") "food" and not actually identifying the source of said food. Why the brain and the head? Don't know... dealing with zombie mice maybe? Sorry, despite the seriousness of the topic a little application of laughter might not hurt. OK, it was "just a little," I admit.

[Ken Carman]

Note to mods and other posters. Because of a computer problem I had to hit "post" first and then go back and check for kathleen's post...


This is what I had posted (just a short portion...)

[quote]Johnathan... I am posting the following out of courtesy. She contacted me (I guess through Volconvo)...

This is a message from Kathleen E. at Volconvo Debate Forums

...and said she was having posting problems. As I mentioned, in the last post, so have I. A duplicate thread problem? Don't know. Some of it seems familiar. I wonder if it wound up on the other thread? If it's a dupilicate, just ignore it.


So here it is...

OK, I do have the education to weigh in on this one...

Then I said...

OK, there it is. I do believe it is posted elsewhere.

Well, it was. But either Kathleen was having problems between the two threads, or just as likely she, being a first time poster, it was being held back for moderation. Nothing unexpected and probably a wise idea when any new poster appears here at Volconvo.

Anyway, sorry for the interruption. Hopefully there is no conflict between the two threads. Back to the topic...

[Jonathan]

Ken,

The post you are looking for should be on the previous page of this thread.

Humor can be a good thing.

So, with that in mind let’s discuss our potential rain mouse:

I agree that the behavior of mice and people are not often the same. I will go a step further and say that behaviors that they do share are not necessarily done for the same outcome. Now, that we have reached this, what bearing does this have on autism=novel form of mercury poisoning?

Does it mean that autistic mice do not resemble autistic humans (guessing wildly)?
Okay, maybe, but what does an autistic mouse look like? How do we know?

The relevant mouse in Dr. Hornig’s study was described as “grooming” the other to death. There is an absurdity, I think, in comparing the behavior of a mouse and an autistic child, in terms of a behavior, whose intensity was vastly different. Intensity, is the difference between giving a friend a playful punch and bludgeoning him to death.

[Kathleen E.]

Mammals generally have some social traits including respect for the bodily integrity of littermates. This usually develops because the littermates yelp when injured, and the biting party (whether mouse or dog or preschool child) recognizes that the other has been hurt, and stops accordingly.

There are basically only two ways--well two ethical ways--of researching this question. We are not going to be able to demonstrate speech delay in mice or even (God forbid!) chimpanzees injected with thimerosal. If you know the behavior of autistic children, and also animal behavior, you can easily see parallels with the Hornig study. Some, perhaps many, autistic children cannot distinguish between their peers and inanimate objects in the environment and some brain scan studies have confirmed this. (The part of their brains that is active when they see faces is not the same as other children, it is the part that usually is used to look at objects rather than faces.)

If this is disallowed (along with other animal studies) because you feel it is an offensive or inaccurate comparison--and frankly I still do not-- then we are left with: experimental studies on human beings (highly unethical under the circumstances), or epidemiological studies. The latter are confounded not only by the issue of genetic vulnerability in certain families, but by the inclusion or exclusion of populations that eat more mercury- containing fish or have amalgam fillings or live near power plants producing mercury pollution. And a negative (inconclusive) result on an epidemiological study means essentially nothing. You cannot prove, statistically, that an effect does not exist by an epidemiological study. Even if you prove that the effect, if present, is smaller than a particular percentage or amount, or that, really, mercury is good for children (!), you would be left with the subgroup problem.

We already know that organic mercury is a powerful neurotoxin. (We also know, by the way, that some human families have primary immunodeficiencies, and this is not irrelevant to the present conversation because at least one study found 8% IgA deficiency among autistic children. We also have this situation in our family and one young relative, who never had chickenpox and was immunized on his first birthday with live-virus varicella, developed shingles a week after his fourth birthday, along with pneumonia. Another developed grand-mal seizures one month after her mumps vaccine, at 12.) For children of families with multiple members with autoimmune conditions, mercury allergies/immune reactions demonstrable among their relatives and/or primary immune deficiencies, the risk/benefit ratio for vaccination may be very different from the general population.

Fortunately, in most states all the parents of such children have to do is state in writing that it is against their religious beliefs to immunize their child and they can be exempt from such treatment. This is safer for the children than getting a medical exemption, because one doctor may disagree with another one. If the vaccines were safer, this would not be necessary. However, most parents in this kind of situation have very little compunction about saying that their religion opposes allowing their children's brains to be poisoned. Mine certainly does! They do not, however, appreciate being placed in this kind of double bind. If you are worried about "herd immunity," and the safety of the pediatric population in general....make the vaccines safer and stop the controversy about putting neurotoxins into them.

I read an interesting article recently that said the first autistic boy who was diagnosed by Kanner with "classical autism" in the 40s recovered after he was treated for juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, at the age of 12, with gold salts. (Gold, of course, sticks to mercury and may have acted like a chelating substance.) He subsequently became a productive member of society and the owner of a business. (This disclosure was made by the person's brother, as I recall.) Another good reason for giving up on the defense of thimerosal is that people can recover from mercury poisoning, although I admit that the situation of those exposed in the womb or in early infancy may be very precarious. But that's a different story.

Peace,
(Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD

[Kathleen E.]

Some people might like to read for themselves a comparison of the effects of mercury poisoning in humans and autism:

http://www.attorneyaccess.net/docume...yPoisoning.pdf

That link has the paper by Bernard, et.al, 2001. Autism:A novel form of mercury poisoning, Medical Hypotheses 58(4), 462-471.

Peace,
Kathleen

[Jonathan]

Kathleen,

I want to state first, that I do not oppose the removal of thimerosal. I am aware that a segment of the population has lost trust in it. Also, following its removal we will see if anything happens to the incidence or prevalence of autism.

Biting, is dependent on what motivates it, what it is a function of so to speak. A child biting in fear or anger is not the same as a mouse grooming another to death. Functionally, and topographically they are different. To equate them, seems to be a false equation and thus an error of logic.

I am aware of the face study you referred to. I do not see a reasonable connection to autistic persons. A mouse killed another mouse by grooming it. This is a social act gone very wrong. This is not the act of persons who might perceive others as objects. I should note that I have spent a lot of time with autistic persons and I see no reasons to accept the hypothesis that autistic persons perceive others as objects, as valid either.

I agree that we can not show autism effectively in animals, this is caused in part, because we do not know what an animal model of autism looks like, and the claims countering this that I have seen to date have had magnificent stretches of logic. I once stumbled on a circular justification for Dr. Hornig’s study .

My favorite animal model autism article proposes to use Zebrafish (Tropepe & Sive, 2003). An autistic adult told me that she is just glad the authors opted for vertebrates.

You cannot prove, statistically, that an effect does not exist by an epidemiological study.

Neither can any science, it must be potentially disprovable or it has ceased to be science.

The epidemiology does illustrate some problems with the mercury-autism hypothesis. The UK is not comparable to the US in their vaccine schedule or the amount of potential thimerosal their children receive. The same is true for Japan who also has the same rate. Some Canadian data are also about to come out. These other countries have the same prevalence and incidence rate as the children in the US. How is the difference made up? Is the mercury in the power plants? In the fish? In the old mines? The computer screens? It seems awfully hard to pin down. Sometimes its presence seems like a foregone conclusion, or so it looks form the outside.

Re persons with differences of their immune system, I strongly agree with you. I also would agree that no one should be forced to be vaccinated. It should be their absolute right to dissent from this. I also support research for safer vaccines.

I am also not particularly worried about herd immunity. On the same note, I want factual information given to parents about things like measles. I literally bite my tongue whenever I hear someone mention how harmless measles are and how hardly any child died from them (kind of like chickenpox). The death rate of measles is near 25% in developing countries. In developed countries it still kills 10-20 per 10,000 cases. There was a US measles epidemic in 1989-1991, mostly among minority pre-school aged children who were not vaccinated. 123 deaths resulted, the majority being children. The recent epidemic consists of certain persons not fact checking. It is an epdemic or irresponcibility.

The Kanner case, is not the nearly the only so called “spontaneous recovery”. Gold salts have been a big deal lately thanks to Mr. Olmstead reporting and Dr. Haley’s encouragement. How this may have chelated the child in question I do not know. Gold salts, so I have heard, have an issue with their ionization, they would not bond to mercury, but that is way outside my area of knowledge. What is also true is that gold salts are not typically used any more in medicine. They can be very harmful. This stuff scares me much more than EDTA or DMSA.

With respect,

Jonathan Semetko

[Kathleen E.]

Jonathan--I see that we do agree on a lot of things. I was writing that post last night while receiving my weekly infusion of gamma globulin for Common Variable Immunodeficiency, which is a primary immunodeficiency. A year or so ago they were talking about mandatory smallpox vaccines for the entire population and that was quite threatening to me, personally. The FluMyst live virus vaccine also is a personal threat to my health, and my family's.

So needless to say, mandatory vaccination is a bit of a hot topic with me. (You will notice that I don't care much who knows about my health conditions. I figure by the time that the insurance companies spread that information around, there really isn't any point.) When I was a young woman, the feminist movement had a saying, "The personal is the political." I think that is true and if it is your house that is burning down, it behooves you and your neighbors to yell loudly and call 911.

Now, about the biting question. Last spring a young man, age 4, who is very dear to me started to hit, kick and bite everyone in sight--teachers, students, administrators--in Head Start. He was clearly NOT angry or fearful but he had a severe receptive and expressive speech delay and language disorder. He had never previously shown any sign of aggressive behavior in Head Start or before, in day care. He tried to get a child's attention by smacking him, once, and a young and probably quite untrained teacher's aide told him, "If you do that, your grandmother will come to get you and take you home!"

Not comprehending the aide's tone of voice or purpose in saying this, and having been offered a reward, he tried to see if this was true. Unfortunately, he was not inhibited by any sense that he was hurting anyone, in fact he did not seem to know or understand this at all. Grandma came into the school when called, saw what was going on, and refused to remove him or take him to McDonald's as he expected. The behavior escalated for several days, then stopped completely after he was given 2.5 mg of Adderal by his pediatrician. The latter explained that it would help him keep his attention focused when listening, so he would catch the whole sentence when addressed.

This child is not psychopathic; he wants to fit in, and often says, "I want to be a good boy." He is affectionate to his family. Since last spring, he has made considerable strides on biomedical treatment (not chelation and certainly not gold salts--too dangerous)...and we do have hopes that he will eventually have the provisional diagnosis of high functioning autism removed.

Perhaps this is, indeed, different from the mouse behavior because it seems to have been based on a language disorder at least partially. But I have to say if you had been there--and I was--you could hardly have missed the fact that this child was flailing about attempting every aggressive behavior he had been taught was against the rules, without any sign of anger or fear or apparent understanding of what the other children were feeling.

Peace,
Kathleen Eickwort

[Ken Carman]

I had asked Colleen, the mother I referred to in the other thread, if she could find a link to counter the NYT article that seemed, to me, to be rather one sided and biased. I hadn't asked for an article the only supported Chris and Collen's views, and I'm glad that's what I didn't get. The following link is actually fairly "balanced," from my brief review of the whole article. I thought I'd pass it on for comments. A lot of phrases have been tossed around here about "charlatans" and "hacks." If I had to apply the last one to the writers of either, I'd would say it applies much more to the NYT piece.

To read article, click HERE.

I will post this over at the other thread so those who follow that one will have this information too.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Jonathan Ken, The post you are looking for should be on the previous page of this thread. : I agree that the behavior of mice and people are not often the same. I will go a step further and say that behaviors that they do share are not necessarily done for the same outcome. Now, that we have reached this, what bearing does this have on autism=novel form of mercury poisoning? Does it mean that autistic mice do not resemble autistic humans (guessing wildly)? Okay, maybe, but what does an autistic mouse look like? How do we know? The relevant mouse in Dr. Hornig’s study was described as “grooming” the other to death. There is an absurdity, I think, in comparing the behavior of a mouse and an autistic child, in terms of a behavior, whose intensity was vastly different. Intensity, is the difference between giving a friend a playful punch and bludgeoning him to death.

Yes, I figured that out after I had to hit "post" or lose what I had done, and then go back and edit the post I had made. :rolleyes: 250 dollars later, I fail to understand why a computer with a brand new hard drive and almost nothing on it is less spry and more forgetful than a 200 year old man. (Post still not edited right, but better... also too late now. There seems to be a time limit on these things here.)

The mice in that study did a number of interesting things like chewing through a cage mates skull. To my knowledge no autistic child has ever chewed through a play mates skull.

That comment was what I was responding to, specifically. Yes, the intensity is vastly different, but I would think even considering and despite the autism or autism like factors (human vs. mouse) the ability to distinguish would have to go to the human brain. So I'm not sure "intensity" is as much a factor as you might think.

The "bearing" would, of course, that while the intensity may vary due to less brain power/different species, the action is quite similar when it comes to lack of intent. When an autistic child "does their laps," over and over and... knocking down people as if they weren't there... or habitually climbs out of windows, runs out doors and into oncoming traffic... or, pick many other characteristics... the part of their brain that identifies these things as dangerous and risky, both to themselves and others is, at best, compromised... unless you would insist that an autistic child is intentionally both homicidal and suicidal, which I'm sure you wouldn't do. And the same compromised nature is probably true when a mouse that may have autism, or autism-like behavior, may "decide" (Is there any actual decision here? Good question.) to "over-groom..." or have brains for breakfast.

Can the mercury, especially found in Thimerosal, affect such things? Well, that's what we are discussing.

[Ken Carman]

I don't see Kathleen's post she just made here yet, although I may have missed it.

Until it shows up, here is an interesting quote...

If you are worried about "herd immunity," and the safety of the pediatric population in general....make the vaccines safer and stop the controversy about putting neurotoxins into them.

Hopefully no one will respond to this post with a, "Oh, then they'll just come up with another reason..." But I have no doubt that over the top "conspiracy" talk is limited to one side or the other in any issue.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Ken Carman I Until it shows up, here is an interesting quote... If you are worried about "herd immunity," and the safety of the pediatric population in general....make the vaccines safer and stop the controversy about putting neurotoxins into them.

As a parent I see over a dozen studies that show no relationship between autism and thimerosal. I also see other parents sending their kids to school unvaccinated because of the scare tactics of the likes of those who are so free to cry "genocide." Does it make a difference? It does. We have seen outbreaks of whooping cough in Boulder and measles in London. This dismissal of herd immunity and the casual tossing around of words like "genocide" is completely irresponsible, reprehensible and frankly dangerous.

[Kathleen E.]

Dear Rick, I said, "If you are worried about "herd immunity," and the safety of the pediatric population in general....make the vaccines safer and stop the controversy about putting neurotoxins into them."

and you replied,

"As a parent I see over a dozen studies that show no relationship between autism and thimerosal. I also see other parents sending their kids to school unvaccinated because of the scare tactics of the likes of those who are so free to cry "genocide." Does it make a difference? It does. We have seen outbreaks of whooping cough in Boulder and measles in London. This dismissal of herd immunity and the casual tossing around of words like "genocide" is completely irresponsible, reprehensible and frankly dangerous."
__________________
Rick

Dangerous? And it isn't dangerous to approve a nasal spray with live virus influenza viruses, that is only supposed to be safe for healthy people from ages 5 and over, and not for pregnant women, but can spread to all of the aging population, the younger siblings of the immunized children, the immunocompromised, the chronically ill, those on chemotherapy, etc. as well as the immune deficient population?

Dangerous? And it wouldn't be dangerous to require the whole population to be vaccinated against smallpox when a live virus vaccine like that one could kill people with primary immunodeficiency? I was told by the Immune Deficiency Foundation not to visit my primary care physician for at least three weeks after she got a smallpox inoculation, if she chose to do so.

Bordetella is a common pathogen and has never been wiped out despite any number of immunizations. Measles is a live virus vaccine and we know it has risks, as does the disease itself. Those risks are multiplied if a person's immune system has been compromised by any means, including mercury poisoning.

Dangerous? And it wasn't a bit dangerous to give pregnant women RhoGam shots with mercury in them, until quietly deciding to change that a few years ago...just in case.

Genocide is the killing of a group of people with a particular set of genes or an ethnic group which shares such. The families with autoimmune conditions and mercury sensitivity are in this exact position with respect to thimerosal. Thank you for helping me clarify my thinking on this subject.

You may think it is reprehensible to tell the truth. I still stand on my own view of the situation, which is that it is both dangerous and reprehensible not to speak out in these situations. (Of course, it is true people like Karen Silkwood often found it was dangerous to speak out, too, in similar situations where a lot of money was at stake.) However, I am sure your only concern is for the public health, and the health and welfare of your children.

Sincerely,
(Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD

PS. On this forum somewhere a person made a statement about peanut allergy. Yes, there is a new treatment for peanut allergy and I believe it was recently FDA approved as well.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: RickSp As a parent I see over a dozen studies that show no relationship between autism and thimerosal. I also see other parents sending their kids to school unvaccinated because of the scare tactics of the likes of those who are so free to cry "genocide." Does it make a difference? It does. We have seen outbreaks of whooping cough in Boulder and measles in London. This dismissal of herd immunity and the casual tossing around of words like "genocide" is completely irresponsible, reprehensible and frankly dangerous.

Once again, there are those who are anti-vaccine. There are those who are pushing for better vaccine safety. If you wish to say the latter is misguided in this specific case, that is a reasonable position from which to argue. But I would no more argue that you are anti-vaccine safety than I think you can argue I am anti-innoculation. To lump them all in together would be intellectually dishonest. Bear in mind, I am not claiming you are. But that type of rhetoric, to me, is as problematic as some of the rhetoric you complain about.

Do scared parents refuse to have their children innoculated? I'm sure some do. In my own column I pushed for parents to have their children innoculated. Now we get to a slightly different topic. If parents refuse an innoculation do we drag their children to the needle and slap their parents in jail? I guess the Libertarian part of me comes out here, although I can see why they might be excluded from certain public facilities, depending on the specific case. Just where does public safety cross the line into intrusive governmant? Damn good question.

As far as your studies you may notice that I said in another comment that it is a war of studies. It's also a war between who gets the big bucks to do the studies too, and who gets denied access to information to make their research more valid. In the last scenario there can be little doubt as to who has that access, unless you can make the case that those in the anti-Thimerosal camp have better funding than mega-pharm and the federal government... including all the related alphabet agencies.

While I agree that some reported rhetoric has been dangerous and irresponsible, I include both sides. For instance, for a medical professional, a Doctor you mentioned, to call everyone who disagrees with his assessment to be a "charlatan" and worse, especially without specifically excluding parents at the same time, is beyond irresponsible. He should be fired unless he apologizes and explains himself. I understand that later in the article he addresses the concerns of parents, but I consider that a little like slapping someone in the face over and over and then saying a few kind words hoping the memory of your accusations will be watered down.

[RickSp]

Cut the verbiage Ken. I was responding specifically to a quote that you endorsed which made light of "herd immunity."

The fact remains that here are fourteen valid studies showing no relationship between autism and thimerasol. The three or four studies which showed a relationship have generally been discredited by pier review as being poorly done or unscientific. So save me that blather about mega-pharm and alphabet agencies.

Your comments about irresponsible language are disingenuous, at best. I think you know full well that I was referring to a poster who you invited to this board who has, more than once, thrown around the word "medical genocide" and you yourself have referred to the authors of a New York Times article you don't like as "charlatans" and "hacks."

[RickSp]

Quote by: Kathleen E. Genocide is the killing of a group of people with a particular set of genes or an ethnic group which shares such. The families with autoimmune conditions and mercury sensitivity are in this exact position with respect to thimerosal. Thank you for helping me clarify my thinking on this subject. (Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD

Dear Reverend Doctor,

Bullshit. Genocide is a crime defined under international law and addressed by the United Nations by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (UHCG) and the International Criminal Court (ICC). Making up your own definition, which you then toss around, is reprehensible and irresponsible. If you are really comparing thimerasol to the Holocaust, then you are merely nuts. If you are using the word genocide just to shake people up, then your scare tactics are deplorable, even if no doubt, effective.

[Jonathan]

Kathleen,

I agree with you that ethical problems should be loudly and clearly identified. These include things like decisions based on poor observation. Case in point: Failure to disclose potential harm of vaccinations to those with immune differences.

The young man who is very dear to you behaved in a logical, and from what he may have understood, predictable manner. He was told the outcome of a behavior, he was not given the necessary information that would have increased the likelihood of another action e.g. (Do not hit other people, it hurts them!).

However, that is not different than the behavior of other preschool aged children. I have seen stunning examples of bad/naughty/mean/cruel/unethical behavior among pre-schoolers just as I have seen it in all other age group.

The behavior of this young man seems in no way, shape, or form, psychotic. This looks like the behavior of a very young child who learns and perceives differently. I am not worried about this young man in this regard, I suspect he has significant people in his life, who are also wonderful role models, who will teach him about these things.

The challenege for those significant persons in his life, may in part consist of trying to decipher why he does the things he does, what things he can/needs to be able to do, what things he should not do, and how to to know the difference.

Jonathan

[Jonathan]

Ken,

Re the computer issues; remember it could be worse.

I think I may sort of understand you point re behavior going to the brain, but I don’t want to leap in my guess too far. Will you clarify?

I do want to add before that the mouse had probable intent. If the intensity of the specific behavior had been less forceful then we wouldn’t be wondering if the mouse should be featured in “Resident Evil 2”.

Intensity, of topography is not the issue in the running example gave.

[Kathleen E.]

I was not invited to this Forum by anyone. I happen to be on an e-mail list with Colleen, the mother of Ken's young relative, and frankly, I have never heard of Ken before the past two days (sorry!).

Actually the dictionary defines genocide as the use of deliberate systematic measures calculated to bring about the extermination of a racial, political or cultural group.

If you say, "I was unaware that there existed whole families in the human population that were sensitive to thirmerosal like the strains of autoimmune rats," I suppose then the attempt to require immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines is not genocide. However, one you say, "It doesn't matter, those genetically sensitive or vulnerable individuals are not as important as the herd immunity," it is. I didn't bring up the Holocaust, you did.

Incidentally, earlier on this Board there was an ad hominem attack on the integrity of Stephanie Cave, MD, who practices in Louisiana. Whatever she may have shared with a group of co-religionists regarding the source of her initial interest in the autism issue, she is a courageous, competent physician whose office is currently treating more than 2400 children with autism, and collecting data from their family medical histories and laboratory studies that will help in solving the scientific questions. She testified before Congress on these issues, thereby sticking her neck out professionally. Referring to her spirituality as lunacy is irrelevant to the adequacy and usefulness of her data, and offensive as well.

Peace,
(Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD

[RickSp]

You need to find a better dictionary. Your definition is a fantasy and your usage reckless. That you use the word genocide, yet disavow any reference to the Holocaust, just proves the point.

Are you addressing me regarding Dr. Cave? If so I have no idea to whom you are referring.